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WGI, Time for a change?-


drumguy50

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> Because ballet is hard. I don't know how else to explain it to you. You keep saying "well there are other things you can do to increase demand", but have yet to offer a single idea.

Well, as for dancing Break Dancing is also hard, so is Ballroom Dancing, so is Jazz Dancing, ad infinitum; but credit from the judges is mainly being fixated on just the Ballet style. And I would not call moving your feet in a drill at 210 beats per min while playing those hybrids any less demanding than standing still doing variations on a Curtsy.

> The activity has parameters. Every activity has parameters. This activity requires visual demand. Marching alone just isn't demanding enough to make it in to the upper echelon.

And show me where Dancing is a part of the specified parameters within the judging sheets concerning visual demand or the rules of performance. Otherwise, it is just something that is being pushed by the community as the current “in vogue” thing to increase visual GE.

> And as a result, other types of ensembles would probably not do well on WGI sheets. That's why you don't see jazz bands entering WGI competitions.

And as a result, the attempts of groups in BOA, WGI, and DCI performing other types of ensemble music which lay outside the realm of military precision do somewhat come across as clinical (thus losing some of the genre value provided by the more-free show-band or the free-feel of a real jazz band). For example: Ballet music and movement has a huge amount of Rubato, but not when performed by the clinical uniform stylings of a WGI line; no way; in WGI it has to be within uniform accel and decel, not Rubato. And, as much as I enjoyed the Blue Devils performing Channel One Suite, it paled in comparison to the Buddy Rich ensemble playing that same chart. Not because of pro to amateur quality differences, but because of the clinical-feel to free-fell differences. But WGI is what it is; an activity in which you yourself stated that the focus is not on entertainment like the show-band drummers, but places clinical uniform cleanliness above genre musical interpretation.

> There is a completely separate structure of organization that just happens to be under the same umbrella organization. Often times the guard folks have no idea what's on on the percussion side, and vice versa. There is no secret faction of guard people driving the bus. The move of the entire marching activity towards dance oriented movement has been happening since the percussion side of WGI was still in its infancy, so no, the guard side of the activity isn't making the percussion side do anything.

I agree that there is no secret faction and the percussion side makes its own path within the parameters of WGI; but I also want to reference the bold in your statement; indoor percussion was set up in its infancy within the realm of the *Guard* activity, under the banner of the *Guard* activity, grew under the banner of the *Guard* activity, and by very nature is still highly influenced by the parent *Guard* activity. So, if you want to say I am biased it would be with the genesis of the indoor percussion being an outgrowth of the indoor *Guard* activity.

Again, where is this mandate you think is being placed on the activity? The fact is, everything in this activity is an adaptation of something else. Its very rare you see groups with music that was specifically written for marching band, or indoor drumline. Its all inspired by, or arrangements of some already existing music.

The parameters of the activity require visual demand. The way that groups are doing that these days is with the ballet inspired body movement that you see on the floor. The judges are not asking for it. That's what the designers are doing. And yes, the body that some of these groups are doing is in fact harder than moving your feet at a fast tempo. Some of this stuff takes flat out athleticism to get a drum to move the way that they are. By calling it "variations on a curtsey" demonstrates just how little you understand about the detail that goes into the movement that those groups are doing. With feet, you are repeating the same motion over and over again in different directions. It is easy to clean because all you have to do is teach one set of techniques that pertain only to the lower half of the body. When you start incorporating dance into the arena, you have all kinds of other things to think about. You've got foot angles on specific counts. You've got drum facings, and body facings to be concerned with. You've got to unify the width of open first position. The list goes on. Don't just dismiss it as easy because you didn't do it when you marched.

Your argument with the organization of WGI is semantics. On college campuses all over the country, there are music schools that often fall under the "banner" of a college of fine arts, or college of music theater and dance, or many other larger umbrella organizations. Does that mean that the school of music within those colleges can't function on its own as a school? They must play music the way that the dancers dance. That just makes total sense.

The fact is, its all art. Art has been influenced by other art for centuries. This activity is heavily influenced by dance since long before WGI became prominent. We stopped being based around militaristic marching when asymmetrical drill was introduced. The activity adapts, and learns new things. This is the new thing people have learned. In a few years, maybe there will be another new thing. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. However, if you expect to just go out and march and play and get credit for visual demand, then you are behind the times. Its a fact. Nobody is telling anyone how to create that demand. If you think there are other ways, by all means, join a design staff and show us. Until then, stop claiming that there is some kind of conspiracy to advocate "sissy dancing" in the activity. Its just silly.

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I am well aware of the late seventies early eighties pre-WGI history of the Ward Durrett/Chicago drum line competitions and the Dr. Robert Schitroma creation of the PASIC competitions; but they never took off and caught national fire like the genesis of the WGI competitions. I mean the 2011 PASIC marching show has turned into a glorified clinic because not many lines compete in that venue anymore; and the Chicago competitions are long gone. But what has survived is the WGI style; that is what I am referring too when I state the current indoor drum line activity is heavily Guard influenced.

I'm not in Chicago. KIDA, TIDA now TIA and Cavalcade indoor havebeen running drumlines since the 70's, and keep growing.

However, here's where you're mistaken...if anything, Percussion is influencing guard. Go look at some of the rules proposals for guard last year, and see who introduced them.

#### drummers.

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I'm not in Chicago. KIDA, TIDA now TIA and Cavalcade indoor havebeen running drumlines since the 70's, and keep growing.

However, here's where you're mistaken...if anything, Percussion is influencing guard. Go look at some of the rules proposals for guard last year, and see who introduced them.

#### drummers.

> Percussion is influencing guard

Really? Percussion is influencing Guard? Really? I mean, I see drummers a dancin' and a prancin' the ballet, but where do you see any guard members a drummin' those hybrids?

Edited by Stu
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> Percussion is influencing guard

Really? Percussion is influencing Guard? Really? I mean, I see drummers a dancin' and a prancin' the ballet, but where do you see any guard members a drummin' those hybrids?

Getting back to the discussion of issues besides sissy dancing, I would dare anyone to attend an A class finals no semi finals and find a group doing basic skills. The administration has lost sight or the fact that the people who constantly win A and Open class are their bosses is causing it.

If you look at the last couple of years participation is dwindling with most regionals having less groups and the appearance that they are headed the same direction this year does not bode well. Look at some of the judges that used to participate and will not any more. Mickey Kelly, Bret Mascaro, Ralph Hardimon, Rick Brown, JR Carlisle, Gus Barbaro, the list goes on. Why would all of this happen? I have been told that 1 person makes decisions about groups being moved between classes. No matter who it is that is not a good system.

Several comments about the best playing groups winning. As long as you meant best battery that may be true.

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> Percussion is influencing guard

Really? Percussion is influencing Guard? Really? I mean, I see drummers a dancin' and a prancin' the ballet, but where do you see any guard members a drummin' those hybrids?

Stu....you obviously don't actively participate in WGI. perhaps some research would help you. I'm not sure how much more we can explain it to you.

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Getting back to the discussion of issues besides sissy dancing, I would dare anyone to attend an A class finals no semi finals and find a group doing basic skills. The administration has lost sight or the fact that the people who constantly win A and Open class are their bosses is causing it.

If you look at the last couple of years participation is dwindling with most regionals having less groups and the appearance that they are headed the same direction this year does not bode well. Look at some of the judges that used to participate and will not any more. Mickey Kelly, Bret Mascaro, Ralph Hardimon, Rick Brown, JR Carlisle, Gus Barbaro, the list goes on. Why would all of this happen? I have been told that 1 person makes decisions about groups being moved between classes. No matter who it is that is not a good system.

Several comments about the best playing groups winning. As long as you meant best battery that may be true.

I'll disagree as many people talk on who makes decisions. Last year the bar was raised in terms of Basicl skills, and even Open Class...and it was too late to make change for Dayton as many units did not attend a regional til 2 weeks before finals. I'm sure going into this year you will see the herd thinned out

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I'll disagree as many people talk on who makes decisions. Last year the bar was raised in terms of Basicl skills, and even Open Class...and it was too late to make change for Dayton as many units did not attend a regional til 2 weeks before finals. I'm sure going into this year you will see the herd thinned out

Sorry basic skills are basic skills. Intermediate skills are intermediate skills. I have been told by numerous directors that Mark Thurston is the only one who makes decisions on moves. He has been right about 50% of the time. Since the other administrators have limited back ground he is the best person of the group but no one person should have that power. The other psart you skipped is the declining involvement. In any industry or activity it suggests changes need to be made and it should start at the top.

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Sorry basic skills are basic skills. Intermediate skills are intermediate skills. I have been told by numerous directors that Mark Thurston is the only one who makes decisions on moves. He has been right about 50% of the time. Since the other administrators have limited back ground he is the best person of the group but no one person should have that power. The other psart you skipped is the declining involvement. In any industry or activity it suggests changes need to be made and it should start at the top.

Mark isn't at every regional, and we've seen units promoted from prelims to finals, so I doubt he makes EVERy call.

and I'd trust Mark with my life.

declining involvement? Really? considering they are maxed out on units they can take at Dayton, how is it declining? regionals? Some grow some drop, it ebbs and flows. I know how big the closest regional to me was 10 years ago, now they are bringing in 2 panels because the day is so long.

Plus....it aint cheap. look at school budget issues. it's not cheap to run an independent unit. In this economy, you expect numbers to grow by leaps and bounds? I dont, and I'm sure theydon't either.

You want change at the top? Who then? Dennis back? God help us all.

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Stu....you obviously don't actively participate in WGI. perhaps some research would help you. I'm not sure how much more we can explain it to you.

Take a painter, a sculptor, a singer, a musician who has never heard of WGI, and a lay-person to Guard Finals as well as to Drum Line Finals; then ask them if Drum Line influences Guard more or if Guard influences Drum Line more; therein you will find the real answer.

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