CaballarosJr. Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Before 1980 it was a tick if someone dropped a rifle, flag or instrument. Only 27th, Phantom and Cavaliers and the Kilties tried anything more than single tosses and various "artistic maneuvers." In 1976 The Class A Corps Buckeye State Caballaros performed quite possibly the first ever color guard equipment exchange in such songs as "Hill Where The Lord Hides" and "If" in an era when not only did rifles have to be caught, but thrown, caught in unison with the same heights. Not like the last nearly three decades where precision or even dropping doesn't have any effect on the score. (1988 Bluecoats Autumn Leaves at 3:14) Despite maneuvers thought impossible BSC didn't get hardly a single tick and got 2.0 in virtually every show. It's sort of a tragedy that we competed in Class A before crowds usually less than 5,000 in small stadiums like George Finnie. To use the concept of UNIQUE VISITORS versus repeat visitors to drum corps crowds, it's unlikely that we had any more than 14,000 "unique spectators" that summer. Thirty five years later there are probably less than 10,000 of those spectators who are still alive who remember us. But, I'm sure they talk about us feeling grateful to have been in a crowd that summer to see such a daring rifle line. I have judges tapes where the judges state in no uncertain terms that we were the best guard of all time to the date. I sat in the crowds that summer hearing members in Marion, Butler and Toledo of SCV, 27, Phantom proclaim to collectively paraphrase, "We wish we were as good as this Caballaros Corps from Cleveland." The crowds were blown away wondering how they did it. So, this isn't just my family related opinion but that of judges, fans and members of other corps. I heard as a younger sibling spectator that some spectators questioned why they let the rile line assume such a physical injury risk. Not even considering the ticks. It's a shame that we didn't go to Philadelphia. We (they, my siblings) did a rifle exchange like Phantom did in 1980 at about 2:14 back to back turn around, when dropping a rifle counted and couldn't be retrieved. Some of the judges seemed to have heart attacks seeing what we (they) had just done over and over. From Symphonic Dance #3 "Fiesta" all the way through to the final push in "If." If you judge the terms "All Time" by what was done at the time based on the rules (or in the present case, lack of rules), then there is nothing that can be less disputed then the best rifle line ever being the 1976 Buckeye State Caballaros: Danny, Cecil,Marianne, Laura, Marcia, Pam, Donna, Carolyn, Barb (?),Donna et al. There are no videos of BSC on The Legacy Collection. A video would paint a thousand words. I wish Drum Corps International would put together DVD's of non top 12 corps-even Class A, Division II and now called Open Class Corps so those corps few people are still alive remember, like the 1966 IC Revieres can enjoy. If anyone has a home movie that was transfered to VCR and now is on DVD of the 1976 BSC, it would be a great service to Drum Corps education to post it here and for DCP to allow it to remain. Hopefully, if DCI doesn't start a non top 12 Legacy Collection, at least people can google this posting which is the real reason why I am posted it. Hopefully, "Best Drum Corps Rifle Line" will yield this posting. Steve Bayt marching member 1977-1981 of the corps with the best all time rifle line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MsBusDriver Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) Yeah, it's too bad that ALL competing Corps weren't taped back in the day no matter their division. I mean DCI didn't even film '72,'73. We were lucky to get what we got for '74. Got to disagree on some statements though. Many Corps, including SCVs rifle line did "Doubles" and other tosses. I always admired what those ladies could do because in the early 70s their rifles weighed at least 8 pounds or more. Troopers also did a rifle exchange. Remember the toss around the Drum Major? Those were individual tosses granted, but I never saw a drop. Lot's of great rifle lines back in the day. Wish I could remember seeing Buckeye State Caballaros. Sure hope that someone can come through for you with an old video or 8mm. It would be so cool to see the very best of '76. Got to keep history alive! '72 SCV Rifle Line with those 8lb rifles... Edited December 19, 2011 by MsBusDriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 (edited) I can't say that I ever saw the Buckeye State Caballeros compete in 1976 or any other season for that matter, and I know that many of the Class A corps and some Open Class corps that may have been Associate members or just below were more adventurous than their more competitive and higher ranking brother and sister corps, so they may have had wonderful shows and great rifles, but I am going to have to stick with some of the more predictable choices and will have to say that between 1976 and 1982, no one could match the 27th Lancers and very close behind would be Phantom Regiment. I can recall going to competitions early in the season and if 27th was appearing, either in competition or exhibition, the place would be packed. Everyone wanted to see what 27th would do next, and between 1975 and 1982, 27th's rifles always did something innovative that amazed everyone. Just watch the DCI DVD's and you'll see that what 27th did in 75, everyone attempted in 76, the same holds true for 76 to 77 and 77 to 78. The same is true for 79 to 80, 80 to 81, and 81-82. Similar comments could be made about the flag line as well. Often it took all season to perfect whatever they did, but instead of doing a new program or changing a routine, 27th stuck with it. Also there are no standouts in 27th, and by this I mean no one member of the rifle line appeared to be better than others, 27th's rifle line always worked together. This was something greatly admired by both fans and competitors. Some units, including some of their crosstown rivals, had phenomenal talent but their skill could make the rest of the line look inferior. For 27th, if an individual had great talent, that was fine off the field, but competition was not a place tgo show off, on the field all the rifles were one. Come to think of it, that was true about 27th's hornline and percussion too, but I digress. As far as Phantom is concerned, I found them to be different from 27th in style, but not in substance. Both had tremendous rifle lines. Phantom's show was always difficult, and the rifle line was always working and while you did not always see the same kind of innovation as 27th, their skill and artistry were both phenomenal. Edited December 19, 2011 by Tim K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baja Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Before 1980 it was a tick if someone dropped a rifle, flag or instrument. Only 27th, Phantom and Cavaliers and the Kilties tried anything more than single tosses and various "artistic maneuvers." In 1976 The Class A Corps Buckeye State Caballaros performed quite possibly the first ever color guard equipment exchange in such songs as "Hill Where The Lord Hides" and "If" in an era when not only did rifles have to be caught, but thrown, caught in unison with the same heights. Not like the last nearly three decades where precision or even dropping doesn't have any effect on the score. (1988 Bluecoats Autumn Leaves at 3:14) Despite maneuvers thought impossible BSC didn't get hardly a single tick and got 2.0 in virtually every show. It's sort of a tragedy that we competed in Class A before crowds usually less than 5,000 in small stadiums like George Finnie. To use the concept of UNIQUE VISITORS versus repeat visitors to drum corps crowds, it's unlikely that we had any more than 14,000 "unique spectators" that summer. Thirty five years later there are probably less than 10,000 of those spectators who are still alive who remember us. But, I'm sure they talk about us feeling grateful to have been in a crowd that summer to see such a daring rifle line. I have judges tapes where the judges state in no uncertain terms that we were the best guard of all time to the date. I sat in the crowds that summer hearing members in Marion, Butler and Toledo of SCV, 27, Phantom proclaim to collectively paraphrase, "We wish we were as good as this Caballaros Corps from Cleveland." The crowds were blown away wondering how they did it. So, this isn't just my family related opinion but that of judges, fans and members of other corps. I heard as a younger sibling spectator that some spectators questioned why they let the rile line assume such a physical injury risk. Not even considering the ticks. It's a shame that we didn't go to Philadelphia. We (they, my siblings) did a rifle exchange like Phantom did in 1980 at about 2:14 back to back turn around, when dropping a rifle counted and couldn't be retrieved. Some of the judges seemed to have heart attacks seeing what we (they) had just done over and over. From Symphonic Dance #3 "Fiesta" all the way through to the final push in "If." If you judge the terms "All Time" by what was done at the time based on the rules (or in the present case, lack of rules), then there is nothing that can be less disputed then the best rifle line ever being the 1976 Buckeye State Caballaros: Danny, Cecil,Marianne, Laura, Marcia, Pam, Donna, Carolyn, Barb (?),Donna et al. There are no videos of BSC on The Legacy Collection. A video would paint a thousand words. I wish Drum Corps International would put together DVD's of non top 12 corps-even Class A, Division II and now called Open Class Corps so those corps few people are still alive remember, like the 1966 IC Revieres can enjoy. If anyone has a home movie that was transfered to VCR and now is on DVD of the 1976 BSC, it would be a great service to Drum Corps education to post it here and for DCP to allow it to remain. Hopefully, if DCI doesn't start a non top 12 Legacy Collection, at least people can google this posting which is the real reason why I am posted it. Hopefully, "Best Drum Corps Rifle Line" will yield this posting. Steve Bayt marching member 1977-1981 of the corps with the best all time rifle line. Well, well what to say. First I never saw BSC as my drum corps days ended in 1975. BSC a merger between the Cleveland area corps Buckeyes and the Caballeros both of which I saw in previous years. Thanks for the thread BTW on rifle lines. I think we all have enjoyed watching the rifle lines in those years. The point that resonates with me is that the second tiered corps, the "Class A's", out-numbered the well known corps 40 or 50 to one. There are few photos and fewer discusions about those corps which most of us marched. It is unlikely that DCI will ever ever ever make a Legacy Collection of the non top 12 corps and those films and video tapes located in peoples closets will eventually all be throw away, mainly because the owners believe noone wants to see them. I love your enthusiam for this topic because it has brought light to a subject that in many ways is dear to our hearts, not forgetting all those wonderful drum corps and the people that marched in them. I found a couple of pictures in "old drum corps photos' thread and thought it might be nice to add them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHall Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 We (Royal Coachmen) hooked up with the Buckeyes in 72. I would say that our rifle line in 76 was top notch too. The line was up there with Seneca's rifle line. I would also mention that Precious Blood Cardinals had a good line in 76. We took top rifle line a few times that year. I don't believe we competed against you that year though except maybe at DCI in Philly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornsUp Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Best snare-drummers-spinning-rifles line: 1977 EOC, 1st tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Matczak Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Steve Bayt marching member 1977-1981 of the corps with the best all time rifle line. Being from Erie, I saw BSC a bunch of times in that era,..........The conical sound projectors on the snare drums was an innovation that I think is a better concept than scoops,...........anyway, you should visit corpsreps.com and send in updates for the corps page, as there is no info at all on 76, no corps history, just a few photos,.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byline Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Best snare-drummers-spinning-rifles line: 1977 EOC, 1st tour Wish I could've seen it! A Cavaliers friend of mine mentioned that when I joined Oakland in '78. He figured that surely I would have to spin rifle (I was on flag) if the drum line did the year before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puppet Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 As a horn player, I may not have the creds to mention this, but BITD before there was a DCI there were many drum corps with great rifle lines (and who carried pieces that were in excess of 8 pounds) who did a great many things besides just walk around with them ... The Troopers were mentioned and I will not let Anaheim's line go unmentioned, but there were others on the east coast For instance: I thought our guys kinda looked great just marching in formation before they did stuff... And they did do interesting stuff, too... I wish I had some more shots of the Bridgemen, Bluerock, Warriors and if I'm not mistaken didn't Boston have a good looking rifle line, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammaster Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I really miss all the real precision from back in the 70's. You don't see that anymore. Now it's all scatter drill and a bunch of dance. ( not that there is anything wrong with that it's just different) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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