Stu Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) That being said, let's not forget that one of the great differences between WC and OC is touring expectation. While BDB may qualify up in 19, I doubt that a WC tour model is in the cards for them anytime soon. a) Even in WC you can chose to limit your own tour expenses (see my previous post) so BDB and SCV Cadets could do what Jersey Surf or The Academy do for their tour models; but that is not the real reason BDB will never move into the WC. Those parent organizations do not want two WC corps in their own stables; so no matter if BDB or SCV Cadets finish 3rd and 4th on Saturday behind BD and SCV those feeder corps would still continue to compete in the OC not the WC. b) The two divisions are not only there for financial reasons, but also competitive reasons; and these two aspects must not be separated with one taking precedent over the other. The OC should be a place to foster corps in both financial responsibility and competitive growth; and when a corps has shown to be good stewards with both aspects that corps should be moved into the WC. Some would argue that keeping BDB and SCV Cadets in the OC causes other corps to "step it up" and thus increases the competitive quality of the other corps in the OC. This is probably true in the competitive aspect. But the other OC corps do not, have not, and cannot acquire the financial resources which BDB and SCV Cadets acquire from their parent organizations. And no one can argue the fact that the capital acquired from those parent organizations (whether money, staff, support, etc) creates a huge on-field competitive inequity within the OC system; and also keeps many OC corps from ever forming and growing slowly because the OC competitive expectations are too high right out of the gate. This is why when an OC corps gets to the point where it can actually hang with WC corps DCI should move those corps up to WC. Edited February 16, 2012 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) No. I don't think any group should be forced to compete down a class. To some corps, competing within their class is not the priority. Pioneer has made it clear that its priority is introducing students to a world class tour who might not get the opportunity otherwise. They train less experienced players, and often times, those players go on to other corps. If they are forced to move down and lessen their tour schedule, the corps may lose its membership numbers, thus its viability. Clearly, what they are doing is working for them, as you never hear rumors of Pioneer folding, and the administration seems happy with the role they play in the field. Why force them out of that role? Extending your argument (which I agree with BTW) to the OC --> WC transition... If DCI is unwilling to bump a corps down for competitive reasons , why should BDB be forced to participate in WC if they're perfectly content with the experience they're currently providing their members in OC? Either DCI unilaterally promotes (and demotes) or they don't. Edited February 16, 2012 by corpsband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Asking BD or SCV to move their Open corps up is not feasable. Neither organization has the time, staff or money to run two full-time World corps. This came up in the pipe band world recently as well, where a perennial top 3 band's B group got promoted, against their wishes, to the top division. In response, the B band was disbanded and reformed in the 2nd division as a new group. It would be pointless (and a bit silly) if DCI corps had to resort to this. As for who should be Open vs. World, honestly, I've talked to several directors and administrators over the years. One thing they've been consistent about is that WC isn't so much about the scores as it is the calibre of corps that they can sell to and at events. "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." Blindly promoting whoever manages to outscore the bottom WC corps isn't a very reliable way of managing who now gets to (and has to) pay a million bucks a summer touring. For me, honestly, there are several corps that don't look or quack like a duck. I've put that in threads before, and am not going to rehash it again. But I'm fine with the philosophy, even if DCI's threats to actually evict a corps have never come to pass, years and years after the sabre rattling. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) For me, honestly, there are several corps that don't look or quack like a duck. I've put that in threads before, and am not going to rehash it again. But I'm fine with the philosophy, even if DCI's threats to actually evict a corps have never come to pass, years and years after the sabre rattling. Mike If an OC corps must "walk like a duck and quack like a duck" (as it applies to WC competitive quality) truly is the philosophy within DCI, then they should just do away with the farce of the Open Class, support just a one-class idea, set performance quality standards for participation, and eliminate the corps which do not pass muster. Which means that the G7, and the D-Ray, are in your eyes prophets not destroyers. Edited February 16, 2012 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Extending your argument (which I agree with BTW) to the OC --> WC transition... If DCI is unwilling to bump a corps down for competitive reasons , why should BDB be forced to participate in WC if they're perfectly content with the experience they're currently providing their members in OC? Either DCI unilaterally promotes (and demotes) or they don't. I think you have to take the tour requirements out of the conversation in order for it to be fair. The philosophy behind WGI's system (as I understand it), is to avoid groups being forced against their will to compete against groups that are more advanced than they are. That being said, groups that have advanced past their class get promoted in order to avoid groups trolling for medals. In that same motivation, forcing a more advanced group to move down a class would put a more advanced group in the lower class, thus affecting everyone else in that lower class. In other words, you can force them to move up, but not down. If a group chooses to move up knowing that they will get stomped on competitively, that's their prerogative, but no group should be forced into that kind of situation. Its kind of like playing in little league. There are age groups that for the most part are adhered to. Kids who are a little better than their age group can choose to compete on a team in a higher age bracket, but its pretty rare you see someone allow an older kid to compete in a lower one without some kind of disability. I had two friends (brothers) in middle school who were two years apart, but the younger one played in the next age group up in little league so he could play on the same team as his brother. They never would have let the older brother play down an age group. As a result, the younger brother got a lot better in a couple of years. That's the point of the system. Groups can advance as fast as they like, but they can't dig in their heels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm not really sure who should be next but I do feel very strongly that now that we are back to a combined class prelims and semifinals, I do NOT think that any corps who is not making the top 25 (combined class semifinals) should be eligable for World Class. Pioneer, sorry guys....but you need to move down to Open Class. World Class is just not your play ground at the moment. As for moving up, Blue Devils B charged all the way to 19th last year with the new combined system. They would be very deserving of World Class Membership at this point. It would be neat to see the Blue Devil Organization with two World Class Corps. You do realize that competitive results is but a small part of what constitutes World Class correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 How about a promotion/demotion system much like we have for the tour of champions. Every year the top two OC corps move up to WC and the bottom two WC corps move down to OC? I think this would involve DCI changing their criteria about what exactly an OC corps would need in place to move up to WC i.e. be a little less strict on their WC entry criteria. just a thought. except.....Open Class doesnt get paid like DCI does. So by reclassifying people score, you affect their pocketbook....a lot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Have either Oregon Crusaders or Music City requested a move up to WC? Would seem to me most any OC corps that can move up to the higher payouts of WC would want to do so (BDB excepted due to their support from the BD org). Similarly, I'd think any WC corps would fight being moved down to OC because of the lower payout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWonka Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 b) The two divisions are not only there for financial reasons, but also competitive reasons; and these two aspects must not be separated with one taking precedent over the other. Wrong. As far as I know it's only there for financial reasons. Well and voting. It has nothing to do with competitive placement now days. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You are wrong. Competitive ability is part of the evaluation. You can have the most fiscally responsible corps on Earth, rolling in money, touring for eight weeks every summer and caring for their kids better than anyone, but if they don't have enough kids or enough talent/experience, they will not be promoted to WC until that changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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