Dirtiest championship corps since 1990

[TESB]

Not saying I agree (because I don't) but didn't the brass score make up for all of this?

No it didn't. The brass score alone is relatively insignificant or only as significant as similarly sliced and averaged captions.

If the visual scores reflected the sentiment that the visual wasn't that great (which it really kind of wasn't), then Crown could have actually come in 2nd that night. crown actually may have been a tenth or two down on visual overall, yet won the feet score outright. Most of the sheets were fairly close, but crown won because they got some good scores in music GE, which gave them GE, which is 40% of the score, which gave them the title. Crown was 2nd in music and visual, but first in GE by enough. And who says we needed a crowd GE caption?

But that's not to say they didn't deserve the win, clearly the best and flashiest hornline DCI has ever seen, it's probably just healthy to hear the caveats and what we might not want to hear.

Edited April 21, 2014 by TESB

[perc2100]

Not saying I agree (because I don't) but didn't the brass score make up for all of this?

Maybe, maybe not. From a pure numbers standpoint brass does not have a huge factor into their score (just as 6th place percussion didn't kill their placement).

However, one could argue that their stellar brass:

* pushed them to a win in Music Ensemble (a narrow one: they tied Cadets w/99 in content but won Achievement sub)

* pushed them to a win on both Music Effect sheets (and a perfect 100 on one judge's sheet)

* pushed them to an overall GE win: winning Music Effect by such a large margin helped make up for their 2nd place GE Vis deficit of only .15

So I would say that 2013 Crown's stellar brass contributed to their incredible ensemble sound, which helped them win most music captions which made up for slight deficiencies in Vis captions (note - guard helped them in Vis as well) and large deficiency in percussion.

[perc2100]

One can find dirt in every championship show. Some moments here and there which are just a bit off, even some blatant errors, but in all they are overwhelmed by the parts which are brilliantly executed. Same as it ever was. I think some folks might be looking at this as a chance to get some more cheap shots in at shows they either just didn't like or felt should not have won for whatever reason. Understandable. But those championship banners do fly forever.

That's a good point, and just because a Champion is dirty doesn't mean they were dirtier than corps below them: or even just flat-out better corps. I mentioned Cavaliers 1992 as being pretty dirty (as were Star & Cadets), but I personally LOVE that show and have zero qualms watching it on DVD or Blu-ray.

You're right about fans of 'the other team' potentially being bitter at a Champion that beat 'their' corps and taking shots at them: or maybe just looking at them hyper critically. I'm at a point right now where placements don't mean much, and even shows that didn't do much for me during their respective season are viewed by me now with more of an admirable eye (for example, I don't like Phantom 2008 visual, but when ever I watch it I a) appreciate how wildly popular they were, and how great they designed the show to generate fan love, and b) how amazing their percussion and brass were) than a cynical one.

[TESB]

Maybe, maybe not. From a pure numbers standpoint brass does not have a huge factor into their score (just as 6th place percussion didn't kill their placement).

However, one could argue that their stellar brass:

* pushed them to a win in Music Ensemble (a narrow one: they tied Cadets w/99 in content but won Achievement sub)

* pushed them to a win on both Music Effect sheets (and a perfect 100 on one judge's sheet)

* pushed them to an overall GE win: winning Music Effect by such a large margin helped make up for their 2nd place GE Vis deficit of only .15

So I would say that 2013 Crown's stellar brass contributed to their incredible ensemble sound, which helped them win most music captions which made up for slight deficiencies in Vis captions (note - guard helped them in Vis as well) and large deficiency in percussion.

Yeah but you gotta admit game winning 20s in music GE and ensemble and a low placing percussion section for writing and performance contradict. It can really smell fishy both ways and can be reasons for changes in those two captions this year.

Edited April 21, 2014 by TESB

[HockeyDad]

I can't say which is the dirtiest, but in my humble opinion, I think Blue Devils 2009 has to be one of the cleanest shows ever!

How can you say that? Seems like they were breaking glass all over the place every time I watched that show.

[perc2100]

Yeah but you gotta admit game winning 20s in music GE and ensemble and a low placing percussion section for writing and performance contradict. It can really smell fishy both ways and can be reasons for changes in those two captions this year.

I don't think so. There are what, 80ish horns on the field which is a strong majority. Also, the GE Music and Music Ensemble judges are all in the box (with different criteria) than the percussion judge on the field. What might be an amazing ensemble music sound from the press box could WELL counter a tick or two in the snare line.

It's easy to forget that judges captions are one piece of a puzzle, and their ranking reflects their caption vs other corps' same caption. I would say, in regards to Crown's percussion, it's highly possible Crown took what the designers knew was the weakest caption of the corps, designed percussion music book to max out Music Effect & Music Ensemble, knew they would take hits in percussion caption, and hoped it would all even out in the overall score's favor in the end (which it did). Even listening to FN videos (mic's mostly from the press box) it's apparent that Crown has a great ensemble sound, and their percussion is not too filthy as to impede their overall music ensemble. What is dirty standing two feet in front of the snare line might be grey at worst from the box (if not inaudible).

[actucker]

I don't think so. There are what, 80ish horns on the field which is a strong majority. Also, the GE Music and Music Ensemble judges are all in the box (with different criteria) than the percussion judge on the field. What might be an amazing ensemble music sound from the press box could WELL counter a tick or two in the snare line.

It's easy to forget that judges captions are one piece of a puzzle, and their ranking reflects their caption vs other corps' same caption. I would say, in regards to Crown's percussion, it's highly possible Crown took what the designers knew was the weakest caption of the corps, designed percussion music book to max out Music Effect & Music Ensemble, knew they would take hits in percussion caption, and hoped it would all even out in the overall score's favor in the end (which it did). Even listening to FN videos (mic's mostly from the press box) it's apparent that Crown has a great ensemble sound, and their percussion is not too filthy as to impede their overall music ensemble. What is dirty standing two feet in front of the snare line might be grey at worst from the box (if not inaudible).

Yeah, I don't buy the "it wasn't dirty enough to matter in the box" argument. I've seen the videos as well. The execution problems are definitely an issue from the box. While MA is an ensemble tape, its still a content vs achievement sheet, and lack of achievement shouldn't be rewarded. Lets also keep in mind that the percussion judge had them in 5th in content. The front ensemble book was pedestrian, as was the battery book. Given, judging all of those things across the entire ensemble is difficult, but I think the MA score is more a result of being wowed by the brass and missing the rest of the ensemble than it is an actual representation of which corps had the best overall music ensemble on the field.

All of that said, I'm not arguing that Crown should or shouldn't have won the championship. I simply don't agree with the MA scores. I, however, am not a DCI judge, so its not up to me.

Edited April 21, 2014 by actucker

[perc2100]

Yeah, I don't buy the "it wasn't dirty enough to matter in the box" argument. I've seen the videos as well. The execution problems are definitely an issue from the box. While MA is an ensemble tape, its still a content vs achievement sheet, and lack of achievement shouldn't be rewarded. Lets also keep in mind that the percussion judge had them in 5th in content. The front ensemble book was pedestrian, as was the battery book. Given, judging all of those things across the entire ensemble is difficult, but I think the MA score is more a result of being wowed by the brass and missing the rest of the ensemble than it is an actual representation of which corps had the best overall music ensemble on the field.

All of that said, I'm not arguing that Crown should or shouldn't have won the championship. I simply don't agree with the MA scores. I, however, am not a DCI judge, so its not up to me.

That could be be; to be fair the brass IS the majority of the music ensemble. You're right, if the MA judge is a brass guy, I would imagine an amazing brass line will get the love; just as if the Percussion judge is a battery guy the tapes will be 80-90% battery comments. The also "only" won MA by .1, with the wider spread in front of BD's 3rd because BD was 4th in Achievement.

It's weird, as a percussionist I would normally be really critical about a weaker percussion section. However in this case, especially without a tick-based system, I can totally see how the criteria of the MA sheets would differ enough from the criteria of the Percussion sheets to not adversely effect the MA ranking/rating.

[actucker]

That could be be; to be fair the brass IS the majority of the music ensemble. You're right, if the MA judge is a brass guy, I would imagine an amazing brass line will get the love; just as if the Percussion judge is a battery guy the tapes will be 80-90% battery comments. The also "only" won MA by .1, with the wider spread in front of BD's 3rd because BD was 4th in Achievement.

It's weird, as a percussionist I would normally be really critical about a weaker percussion section. However in this case, especially without a tick-based system, I can totally see how the criteria of the MA sheets would differ enough from the criteria of the Percussion sheets to not adversely effect the MA ranking/rating.

Sure, I can see how the sheets might allow it. But in that case, I consider that a fault of the sheets. Lets assume the percussion section is roughly a third of the music ensemble (80 brass and 30 - 40 percussion for most corps). What if a different third of the ensemble were a fifth place quality? What if the low brass were the weak section, with simple parts, unclear articulations and rough intonation. Not terrible mind you, but noticeably weaker than the stellar high brass and percussion. Would it still be acceptable for them to win MA?

[perc2100]

Sure, I can see how the sheets might allow it. But in that case, I consider that a fault of the sheets. Lets assume the percussion section is roughly a third of the music ensemble (80 brass and 30 - 40 percussion for most corps). What if a different third of the ensemble were a fifth place quality? What if the low brass were the weak section, with simple parts, unclear articulations and rough intonation. Not terrible mind you, but noticeably weaker than the stellar high brass and percussion. Would it still be acceptable for them to win MA?

IDK: that would literally be impossible to stipulate. I would be curious to hear the 2013 MA tape to get a better idea of what the judge heard & what he was thinking. I guess even for Championships the mics are placed on the field and might not be the most accurate representation of what judges heard in the box.

There's also the perception that 6th place percussion = awful when all that ranking means is that 5 other corps had better drum lines & Crown wasn't necessarily dirty tick bags in percussion.

** EDIT **

for clarity/my better understanding I pulled up the DCI sheets just to get a better understanding of the MA sheet.

Even looking at the MA sheets, it's clear that the adjudicator is supposed to take into EVERYTHING from a full ensemble perspective, not individuals or even sub-sections. On the Achievement subcaption, the judge takes into account:

* clarity of design vocab.

* consistency of ensemble sonority and intonation

* clarity & uniformity of style and interp.

* appropriateness of balance & blend

* precision of vertical alignment

* range of musical, physical, & environmental challenges

So if you're arguing that 1/3rd of the corps negatively affected 1/6th of the sub-caption, while 100% of the corps came darn close to maxing out 5/6ths of the sub-caption, then yes I would say it's relatively insignificant when evaluating the show w/the rubric on the sheets. Even the "precision" verbiage is precision of ensemble playing (in this context, if a snare lick is played with the mello line, are the phrases played by those two sections played well together), not individual section precision. A dirty drum line wouldn't adversely effect this MA sheet a great deal if they played well with the brass line and front ensemble.

Conversely, FWIW, the Percussion sheet is ALL about precision and clarity: TOTALLY different verbiage and criteria.

Edited April 21, 2014 by perc2100