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Moving Up or Down in DCI Competition - The Data


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The paragraph and data below were posted by N.E. Brigand. I wanted to start a new topic on this because it's such great info for all to see, and especially for newbies. The post was originally found in the "Oh oh" thread, which not only had a vague title but what hinting at certain corps over-taking the so called top 5 or 6. In other words, challenging the balance of power. With my apologies to N.E. Brigand for re-posting his excellent research, below are the data he so diligently and professionally acquired.

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Here are the largest annual placement changes into, out of, or within the top 15 for for each five-year period of DCI's history. I have not counted corps who first competed in a given year (like Star of Indiana in 1985) or stopped competing in a given year (like Glassmen in 2013), in which categories are included both hiatus years and corps who were disqualified in the previous year like 1977 Bridgemen. Because there are 41 years, and because there was a pronounced degree of heightened volatility in the earliest years, the first group is a six-year period, and shows changes of nine or more placements; for the rest of the list, the cut-off is change of five or more positions. There are probably a few errors in here, but it gives a general picture:

1973-1978 (six years)

-27 -- 1976 Black Knights (15th>42nd)

-22 -- 1974 Argonne Rebels (11th>33rd)

-21 -- 1976 Kilties (7th>28th)

+19 -- 1976 Guardsmen (31st>12th)

+18 -- 1977 Kilties (28th> 10th)

-17 -- 1974 Bridgemen (9th>26th)

+16 -- 1975 27th Lancers (20th>4th)

+16 -- 1978 Spirit of Atlanta (22nd>6th)

+15 -- 1974 Blue Devils (24th>9th)

-15 -- 1978 Seneca Optimists (8th > 23rd)

-13 -- 1973 Des Plaines Vanguard (7th>20th)

-13 -- 1974 27th Lancers (7th>20th)

+12 -- 1973 Commodores (24th>12th)

+11 -- 1975 Squires (24th>13th)

+11 -- 1975 Precisionaires (25th>14th)

+10 -- 1973 Madison Scouts (14th>4th)

+9 -- 1973 Phantom Regiment (23rd>14th)

-9 -- 1973 Bleu Raeders (12th>21st)

-9 -- 1974 Blue Stars (3rd> 12th)

-9 -- 1978 Cavaliers (7th>16th)

1979-1983

-20 -- 1979 Kilties (12th>32nd)

-17 -- 1982 Guardsmen (15th>32nd)

-11 -- 1980 Offensive Lions (15th>26th)

+8 -- 1979 Troopers (20th>12th)

+8 -- 1980 Seattle Imperials (23rd>15th)

+8 -- 1981 Freelancers (19th>11th)

+8 -- 1982 Suncoast Sound (21st> 13th)

+7 -- 1983 Suncoast Sound (13th> 6th)

+6 -- 1980 Cadets (16th>10th)

+6 -- 1981 Santa Clara Vanguard (7th>1st)

-6 -- 1983 Crossmen (7th>13th)

+5 -- 1979 Cavaliers (16th>11th)

+5 -- 1980 Crossmen (13th>8th)

-5 -- 1980 Guardsmen (7th>12th)

-5 -- 1980 Freelancers (14th>19th)

-5 -- 1981 Spirit of Atlanta (4th>9th)

-5 -- 1981 Seattle Imperials (15th>20th)

+5 -- 1983 Spirit of Atlanta (12th>7th)

1984-1988

+13 -- 1986 Bluecoats (28th>15th)

-7 -- 1985 Crossmen (10th>17th)

+6 -- 1986 Sky Ryders (15th>9th)

+6 -- 1987 Florida Wave (19th>13th)

-6 -- 1987 Troopers (11th>17th)

-6 -- 1988 Boston Crusaders (14th>20th)

+5 -- 1984 Velvet Knights (17th>12th)

-5 -- 1984 Sky Ryders (17th>12th)

+5 -- 1987 Phantom Regiment (10th>5th)

+5 -- 1987 Velvet Knights (12th>7th)

+5 -- 1988 Madison Scouts (6th>1st)

1989-1993

+8 -- 1993 Colts (20th>12th)

+7 -- 1991 Sky Ryders (19th>12th)

-6 -- 1989 Madison Scouts (1st>7th)

+5 -- 1989 Freelancers (15th>10th)

-5 -- 1989 Spirit of Atlanta (10th>14th)

-5 -- 1990 Santa Clara Vanguard (1st>6th)

+5 -- 1990 Crossmen (12th>7th)

-5 -- 1990 Sky Ryders (14th>19th)

-5 -- 1991 Cadets (1st>6th)

-5 -- 1992 Phantom Regiment (3rd>8th)

-5 -- 1992 Dutch Boy (13th>18th)

+5 -- 1993 Phantom Regiment (8th>3rd)

-5 -- 1993 Sky Ryders (15th>20th)

1994-1998

+8 -- 1996 Les Etoiles Dorion Vaudreuil (23rd>15th)

+7 -- 1996 Kiwanis Kavaliers (21st>14th)

+6 -- 1995 Carolina Crown (17th>11th)

-6 -- 1995 Blue Knights (7th>13th)

+5 -- 1994 Magic of Orlando (16th>11th)

+5 -- 1994 Troopers (19th>14th)

-5 -- 1996 Glassmen (8th> 13th)

-5 -- 1996 Troopers (14th>19th)

+5 -- 1997 Glassmen (13th>8th)

1999-2003

-8 -- 2001 Blue Knights (6th>14th)

+6 -- 1999 Boston Crusaders (15th>9th)

-6 -- 2002 Carolina Crown (16th>10th)

+6 -- 2003 Madison Scouts (14th>8th)

+6 -- 2003 Carolina Crown (16th>10th)

-6 -- 2003 Glassmen (8th>14th)

2004-2008

-6 -- 2004 Magic of Orlando (11th>17th)

-6 -- 2007 Madison Scouts (9th>15th)

+6 -- 2008 Blue Stars (14th>8th)

+5 -- 2004 Capital Regiment (19th>14th)

-5 -- 2005 Santa Clara Vanguard (3 rd>8th)

-5 -- 2008 Academy (13th>18th)

2009-2013

-8 -- 2009 Phantom Regiment (1st-9th)

+5 -- 2010 Madison Scouts (15th-10th)

-5 -- 2012 Cavaliers (3rd-8th)

+5 -- 2012 Crossmen (17th-12th)

+5 -- 2013 Troopers (18th-13th)

So while I would love for things to be otherwise, there's not much chance of a shake-up anymore.


Edited by N.E. Brigand, Yesterday, 07:35 PM.

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Love the data that was posted above by N.E. Brigand. Such a great way to look at the consistency, or lack of, with each of the corps. I often ask myself, what happened when some of those big jumps happen (pos. or neg.)? For instance:

+8 -- 1982 Suncoast Sound (21st> 13th)

In this case it was clearly Suncoast having a great staff when it came to music arrangement, drill, show design, and their ability to teach. Suncoast would eventually jump into the top 12, getting as high as 6th I think. Do they make this move to 13th because they out-perform their competition? Yes. Are they also the beneficiary of some corps losing staff and/or perhaps losing their way? Yes.

+6 -- 1980 Cadets (16th>10th)

This is another case of great staff and some miracle funding. Dr. Richard Santo (corps director at that time) saves the Cadets from bankruptcy and brings in a fabulous staff of teachers and designers. The collective of these teachers and designers would go on to lead Garfield to 3 World Titles in a row (83-85), and another in 1987. They would re-construct what we thought of as design and movement, and they became the first corps from the East Coast to win a DCI World Title. Remember that most experts were certain that 27th Lancers would be that corps. Clearly, this jump was the indication of great staff, some financial backing, and smart director who made the right moves, and the Legacy of Garfield which perhaps allowed it to stave off extinction. The jump here had more to do with Garfield simply beating the competition.

+6 -- 1981 Santa Clara Vanguard (7th>1st)

This one is a little different. SCV was a POWER through the entire 70s. They were a potentially top 2 corps every year. Their 7th place finish in 1980 was not a sign of bad performance or weakness on the part of the staff, but they simply gambled on show design (which ultimately prevailed years later from an influential standpoint) and had to make too many adjustments all summer. When they came back in 1981 and won a DCI title, with an extremely musical horn and drum line I might add, it had more to do with SCV being themselves. If anything the drop to 7th in 1980 was the shocker. SCV rising back-up and winning in 1981 was par for the course.

+13 -- 1986 Bluecoats (28th>15th)

A jump this big almost always indicates change in staff and/or philosophy. That was the case for Blooo. In 1984 the corps had financial issues, even almost folded. Ted Swaldo stepped in around then, late 1984/85. Made big changes, infused money, started a bingo game, you name it. In 1986 they had better infrastructure, better staff, and the scores began to show it. They simply out-performed many corps that had traditionally beat them in the past, and the Bluecoats made a loud statement that they were gunning for top 12. They got there, and now they are a perennial top 6 corps, with some years in the top 5, even a 3rd place finish in 2010. This year looks promising!!!! Could we finally have a DCI World Title in Canton? Time will tell.

+5 -- 1987 Phantom Regiment (10th>5th)

-6 -- 1989 Madison Scouts (1st>7th)

These two instances are polar opposites to me. Phantom was consistently a top 5 corps from 1977 - 1984. In 1985 they simply fell behind in drill design, and their ambitious show for the 85 year never materialized. One year later, in 1986, they fell from 8th to 10th. Why? After all, much of their staff was still the same. Had they really forgotten how to teach or design shows? No. But the dynamics of drum corps had drastically changed with Garfield in 1983, 84, and 85. Keeping up their unique style at this time presented a problem, and the 86 show never materialized and they could never clean it (too much tweaking). When they do the White Ballet show of 1987 (including rep from this year--Swan Lake) it was Phantom finding their voice again, while also upgrading demand in visual (drill and GE). They were actually 3rd after semifinals and I felt that's where they belonged, but they had a rough Finals performance.

With Madison, they had typically been a 5th to 7th place corps in the mid to late 80s. Their World Title in 1988 felt like a once-in-a-lifetime show (even though they did have a title in 1975). Had the staff changed? No. Did they not know how to program a show? No. They had fabulous staff, but it was a staff that put entertainment above all else, even over scores and placements. When they won the title in 1988 it just seemed like everything clicked, and the stars aligned as well. European tour for 2 weeks, excellent literature, had a 3rd place drum line, and boy did they clean the marching by summer's end. But in 1989 they took some chances, concentrated on entertainment, and still produced a quality show, but one that was more indicative of their avg. placement in the late 80s.

There are many more examples, but when I see those kinds of jumps (+/-) I am reminded that something behind the scenes caused it to happen.


Edited by jwillis35, Today, 08:53 AM.

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+13 -- 1986 Bluecoats (28th>15th)

A jump this big almost always indicates change in staff and/or philosophy. That was the case for Blooo. In 1984 the corps had financial issues, even almost folded. Ted Swaldo stepped in around then, late 1984/85. Made big changes, infused money, started a bingo game, you name it. In 1986 they had better infrastructure, better staff, and the scores began to show it. They simply out-performed many corps that had traditionally beat them in the past, and the Bluecoats made a loud statement that they were gunning for top 12. They got there, and now they are a perennial top 6 corps, with some years in the top 5, even a 3rd place finish in 2010. This year looks promising!!!! Could we finally have a DCI World Title in Canton? Time will tell.

2 words that should always immediately follow the naming of Ted Swaldo when talking about this era and change:

Larry Hershman - http://bluecoats.com/about_staff_detail.asp?staff_id=213&sb=hof

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2 words that should always immediately follow the naming of Ted Swaldo when talking about this era and change:

Larry Hershman - http://bluecoats.com/about_staff_detail.asp?staff_id=213&sb=hof

Absolutely!! Larry and his efforts were so critical, as Ted's were, to bringing the Bluecoats to DCI's top 12 and the style of show that would ultimately make them a very famous and fan-friendly drum corps.

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)

So while I would love for things to be otherwise, there's not much chance of a shake-up anymore.

Edited by N.E. Brigand, Yesterday, 07:35 PM.

The overwhelming sentiment I hear is that few people want any attempts made to implement reasonable and sensible trransfer policies in place. They don't even want to discuss the pros and cons of it. Its out of the question to most, and totally off the table. Ok, I get that. No sense fighting a battle that few believe in. I'm not a martyr.' Don't want to die on a distant hill for no possible gain.

But without a reasonable and sensible transfer policy in place, the notion that the Cadevaliers arn't going to win more than 80% of the DCI Titles over the next 35 years ( as they have over the last 35 years ) is to decide to purchase a dwelling where the Stepford's all live, and be in PretendLand where " if you just work hard and smart. you too can be a Blue Devils Corps " Oh really ? Without a reasonable and sensible transfer policy in place ? ( that All youth competitive sports have.. all the way down to little league, soccer, etc ) Thats almost fall down funny to me. Oh well, thats the long standing prevailing thinking it appears. It is what it is then, and so thats that.

Edited by BRASSO
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what is a transfer policy?

Some people hold the opinion the Blue Devils should pay the Cadets for all the members that transfer to Concord, sort of as a "training fee."

:poke:

However, to be fair, it is a fact that when a member leaves, whatever level of contribution they made is now gone. At that point the departed corps has to find an equal replacement to retain their achieved talent level. All corps that receive members from a lower placing corps benefit from the experience and training the member received in the lower corps.

Transfer policies would either prevent/restrict member movement, or monetarily compensate the "training" organization.

Edited by c mor
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Some people hjae9bm.png Brasso holds the opinion the Blue Devils should pay the Cadets for all the members that transfer to Concord, sort of as a "training fee."


:poke:

FTFY


ughh why is strikethrough not working? the proper bbcodes are in the message body AND it shows up in the editor preview. But when you post the message it disappears. (the one you see working is an image. )

Edited by corpsband
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Shake ups as in one year x corps makes some crazy rise from out of the top 12 to the top 3 probably won't happen. But long trend shakeups can still happen.

Crown is an example of a shake up. It just takes a while. It takes the right formula, the right direction, the right team. crown 96-06 broke through the race for 12th tier that BK has been struggling to break out of, and broke into the middle tier that Boston is struggling to break out of. and since then have been consistently top 4. That is a major shake-up. if the blue knights in 10 years are in the top 4 consistently, I would consider it a shakeup.

But apart from these isolated cases, yeah we won't see annual shakeups.

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Shake ups as in one year x corps makes some crazy rise from out of the top 12 to the top 3 probably won't happen. But long trend shakeups can still happen.

Crown is an example of a shake up. It just takes a while. It takes the right formula, the right direction, the right team. crown 96-06 broke through the race for 12th tier that BK has been struggling to break out of, and broke into the middle tier that Boston is struggling to break out of. and since then have been consistently top 4. That is a major shake-up. if the blue knights in 10 years are in the top 4 consistently, I would consider it a shakeup.

But apart from these isolated cases, yeah we won't see annual shakeups.

Crown also clearly had a strategy to combat the "oh poor us we don't get the top talent" syndrome. They decided to "out-teach" everyone else. Seems to have worked ok for them (and IMO is the correct strategy for any corps looking to "move up"). IMO too many corps try to "out-design" their way up -- and that is pretty much always a big fail.

Edited by corpsband
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