DCI Loopholes, Rule clarifications/changes?

[xandandl]

Jeff,

As one whose experience as a judge goes back to the tick days, I know what you are trying to say. I don't disagree. But to use your own words the sheets now have criteria they are looking for, DCI (the corps) have yet to do that (sufficiently) when it comes to audible electronics let alone the visual electronics presumed for the near future. I don't diss the current evaluative adjudication; that's someone else's agenda. I am just saying it is to date incomplete.

[GUARDLING]

Jeff,

As one whose experience as a judge goes back to the tick days, I know what you are trying to say. I don't disagree. But to use your own words the sheets now have criteria they are looking for, DCI (the corps) have yet to do that (sufficiently) when it comes to audible electronics let alone the visual electronics presumed for the near future. I don't diss the current evaluative adjudication; that's someone else's agenda. I am just saying it is to date incomplete.

maybe it is complete as it ever will be in a subjective, judged and opinion based activity, as it's always been, even back with the tic system.

[Jeff Ream]

Jeff,

As one whose experience as a judge goes back to the tick days, I know what you are trying to say. I don't disagree. But to use your own words the sheets now have criteria they are looking for, DCI (the corps) have yet to do that (sufficiently) when it comes to audible electronics let alone the visual electronics presumed for the near future. I don't diss the current evaluative adjudication; that's someone else's agenda. I am just saying it is to date incomplete.

actually, the last set of sheets I saw did incorporate some electronics on there. On effect, I don't see why you'd need to specify electronics....effect is effect regardless of what you use to generate it. Music ensemble had it on there last I saw and I'm sure the upstairs percussion sheet does too. In fact I remember the big to do on here in 2009 when the ensemble sheet was posted, and it mentioned electronics and people went haywire saying "if it's on the sheet you have to use it".

for music effect, it shouldn't matter if the effect came through a speaker, a horn, a percussion instrument or even silence.

for visual effect...is it driven by drill? guard work? characters? Lights? doesn't matter. it's a visual effect.

now, for the ensemble caption, I do agree show long issues get a pass or too much of a "well, I've seen it work before so i'll be nice" approach. But since DCI listens to fans 0% on judging issues, I don't expect a change there. And IMO, only drum guys that judge that sheet have the balls to make a call

[xandandl]

Jeff.

As competent as many percussion judges are in life on and off the field, is percussion judging for electronics as it is now being used, the best to consider the whole use of electronics?

For instance, with the Cadets script re-written a zillion times, partially to correct the anachronisms actually cited here on DCP (no, not every US president was sworn in where today we call Washington, DC let alone the White House or Capital,) and in part to finesse the voice-overs and licensing issues (remember Charlie Brown for a few shows during the "Christmas" season,) we're in a whole new arena from drum guys, even if they also judge WGI, assessing bird calls, sirens, and earthquake additives. It is uneven adjudication as we have it today. Plus isn't there already a loud voice that the drum field judging following the battery and also judging the front ensemble is not realistic for today's programming?

Edited September 30, 2014 by xandandl

[Jeff Ream]

Jeff.

As competent as many percussion judges are in life on and off the field, is percussion judging for electronics as it is now being used, the best to consider the whole use of electronics?

For instance, with the Cadets script re-written a zillion times, partially to correct the anachronisms actually cited here on DCP (no, not every US president was sworn in where today we call Washington, DC let alone the White House or Capital,) and in part to finesse the voice-overs and licensing issues (remember Charlie Brown for a few shows during the "Christmas" season,) we're in a whole new arena from drum guys, even if they also judge WGI, assessing bird calls, sirens, and earthquake additives. It is uneven adjudication as we have it today. Plus isn't there already a loud voice that the drum field judging following the battery and also judging the front ensemble is not realistic for today's programming?

field caption really shouldn't be touching electronics. Why? the sound is aimed upstairs. Ensemble and effect should cover it.

drum guys will cover it in WGI because the Music judge is far enough off of the floor to be able to discuss balance issues a nd the effect guy is dealing without whatever is used ties into the show and if it's effective. But in DCI, with percussion on the field ( minus when judge 2 is used) the field guy should look the other way. when judge2 is used, they can surely discuss if it's affecting the ensemble sound.

[HornTeacher]

Jeff.

As competent as many percussion judges are in life on and off the field, is percussion judging for electronics as it is now being used, the best to consider the whole use of electronics?

For instance, with the Cadets script re-written a zillion times, partially to correct the anachronisms actually cited here on DCP (no, not every US president was sworn in where today we call Washington, DC let alone the White House or Capital,) and in part to finesse the voice-overs and licensing issues (remember Charlie Brown for a few shows during the "Christmas" season,) we're in a whole new arena from drum guys, even if they also judge WGI, assessing bird calls, sirens, and earthquake additives. It is uneven adjudication as we have it today. Plus isn't there already a loud voice that the drum field judging following the battery and also judging the front ensemble is not realistic for today's programming?

And, I would submit, the more elements (in terms of show additions, whether they be instrumental, percussive, guard, prop, scenery, or electronic -- not to mention the next area that some wise, daring, enterprising, and/or revolutionary designer will bring to the fold) enter into the equation, the more muddied and uneven the whole subject of judging and assessment will become. No matter how many hours, days, weeks, or months a committee may spend in seclusion, writing and re-writing rules, and re-designing judging sheets to cover every future potentiality, the human mind will always be one step ahead. And, I would also submit, often several steps ahead. Or to state it more simply: "There is no rule expressly AGAINST it; therefore, it has to be legal and allowable."

Don't get me wrong, xanda...I agree with everything you said (hence, my "like" on your posting). I just get the feeling that no matter what happens, there will always be a certain proclivity toward "wanting the cake and eating it too." That is not a general statement meant with pejorative intent; rather, as I see it, much like the natural state of development which we actively discuss daily, as being simply an evolution of taste and regard that all observers, whether those on the field, in the stands, or upstairs in the press/judging booth, will (hopefully) most likely accept, perceive, and interpret with equanimity. And argue, with all righteousness, that it "isn't against the rules" -- hence, by logic, simply must be allowed as a positive contribution from the angle of scoring.

Edited September 30, 2014 by HornTeacher

[cixelsyd]

This is true to an extent, and I didn't mean to infer necessarily that an error such as this would be completely disregarded. What I mean is a 5-person pileup that had nothing to do with bad technique, interval control, member movement, etc. would likely not take a huge hit. We're kind of picking nits here (yea: internet), but I've seen Championship-winning shows where people fell or almost fell and it wasn't the members fault (for example, wet grass). I know when I'm judging it's easy for me to remember that when dealing with youth performers weird things can happen and one has to take a holistic approach and evaluate each situation on its own merit: you can't automatically have the mindset of, "if someone falls they're definitely dropping half a box or a placement" or something.

Naturally. The system is subjective, and it is the role of the judge to decide how severe an error is.

For us bystanders, most errors do not rise to the level where we can conclusively attribute scoring impact to any one such error. The examples I provided, however, were sufficiently severe to affect the score in that manner. Usually, the recaps reflect such disasters when they are of a brass, percussion or visual nature. But when they stem from something electronic, that is not the case.

Now, about "wet grass"... sorry, but wet grass does not cause falls by itself - only in combination with some degree of risky drill, positional error or lapse in technique. And even when there is a fall, 5-person pileups are usually avoided either due to the nature of the drill design, or the manner in which the individual recovers.

This is drum corps. In drum corps, we do not make excuses - we take responsibility. Wet grass, rain, wind, sun in our face, bus breakdowns... none of these things are our fault. But it is our fault if we do not prepare for them. We all know wet grass is part of the game. Evening dew is enough to cause it, not to mention rain before or during a performance. But even the finest of venues, indoor or out, natural or artificial turf, will have spots of irregular surface where a sharp direction change becomes more challenging. Members know this in advance, and learn the proper techniques to maintain balance and traction. Designers know these hazards too, and thus know the risks involved in sharp direction changes, blind follow-the-leader-behind-you moves, tight spacing, and combinations of the above.

I think I see what you are trying to say regarding "not the fault of the members", but a better example would be a judge running into a marcher, in which case the marcher being out of position would be genuinely excusable.

[xandandl]

It may not be every one's cup of tea but I for one am loving the maturity and thought shown by the posters here. It's worthy of Rules Congress discussions I have experienced.

Yes, some may think we'll go bald splitting hairs. But it's nice to be part of a thinking person's discussion without the name calling and silliness that sometimes dominate the off season. Oh humor has its place. But a solid discussion is a blessing too.

Edited October 1, 2014 by xandandl

[MikeD]

Naturally. The system is subjective, and it is the role of the judge to decide how severe an error is.

For us bystanders, most errors do not rise to the level where we can conclusively attribute scoring impact to any one such error. The examples I provided, however, were sufficiently severe to affect the score in that manner. Usually, the recaps reflect such disasters when they are of a brass, percussion or visual nature. But when they stem from something electronic, that is not the case.

Now, about "wet grass"... sorry, but wet grass does not cause falls by itself - only in combination with some degree of risky drill, positional error or lapse in technique. And even when there is a fall, 5-person pileups are usually avoided either due to the nature of the drill design, or the manner in which the individual recovers.

This is drum corps. In drum corps, we do not make excuses - we take responsibility. Wet grass, rain, wind, sun in our face, bus breakdowns... none of these things are our fault. But it is our fault if we do not prepare for them. We all know wet grass is part of the game. Evening dew is enough to cause it, not to mention rain before or during a performance. But even the finest of venues, indoor or out, natural or artificial turf, will have spots of irregular surface where a sharp direction change becomes more challenging. Members know this in advance, and learn the proper techniques to maintain balance and traction. Designers know these hazards too, and thus know the risks involved in sharp direction changes, blind follow-the-leader-behind-you moves, tight spacing, and combinations of the above.

I think I see what you are trying to say regarding "not the fault of the members", but a better example would be a judge running into a marcher, in which case the marcher being out of position would be genuinely excusable.

You are still thinking with a tick system mentality here with this comment. Judges evaluate the totality of a show on their caption. A slip as decribed above is just not going to have much, if any, impact on the total show visual performance evaluation, for example. Depending on whether or not the judge saw it, something like that might register as an "oops...almost fell there...be careful with your how your weight is balanced...nice recovery"...or something like that, depending on the outcome, of course.

I am not a DCI judge at all, and in fact I do not really judge bands at this point, being on staff with one that takes up my weekends as it is, but I have judged somewhere between 150 and 200 band shows, and often ran across electronics and amplification. I know I always envaluated the blend and balance of the sound, and if the electronic instruments, or the amplified instruments, overbalanced the total sound I commented on it, and that was factored into the score. People on DCP who are active in DCI as staff members have written that it happens today in DCI too.

[drangin]

effect is effect regardless of what you use to generate it.

Oh, I disagree with that. The effect of overwhelming volume on a musical climax by acoustic instruments is achieved by teamwork, talent, skill, vision and training. Achieving that with electronics is a matter of turning a knob.

Sound engineers should be trained more in the use of this knob: