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From Neighborhoods kids to Music Majors


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Let's start with the slapping of the other poster's. I never said anything negative to JimF-LowBari did I? I actually empathized with him by relating my experience in drum corp with his experience with his city Church. When Eleran got, to use your word, snarky with me as to my misspelling of Copland you obviously had no problem with that but when I responded in kind then suddenly I'm the snarky guy. The snarky guy who went on to tell Eleran that he was my hero for starting a little, local drum corp. That this was more than I was doing as I was merely advocating the starting of such DC's. I also went on to make sure that Eleran knew I wasn't being sarcastic with him and that I would want to donate financially and, if the corp was being formed in the Boston area, with my time as well. What a wicked man I am. As for frachel, I was just returning what I took as his/her good natured though sarcastic humor. So much for slapping everyone around. If my Boston sense of humor comes across as overly sarcastic well then it's because I am overly sarcastic. I joined the Crusader's in 1974 at age 14 and marched 5 years. I was surrounded by many, many master chop busters who were constantly honing their skills so as to get the better of one another. I actually think that I have been rather gentle in my responses to the other posters.

I didn't respond to Keith Hall when he assumed that I must hate drum corp. I don't hate drum corp I think present day drum corp is amazing. What I hate is that it is now out of reach of the type of kids and young adults that 7567BC and I marched with in our day. I have a problem with that while you 7567BC seem rather proud that you've been "able to adapt." It's nice to know that you have no problem adapting at the expense of others.

You have also accused me of not being able to adapt as if I am this dinosaur or old curmudgeon stuck in my ways. But the fact is I do not have a single problem with any of the on field changes that DC has made. I don't particularly care for narration but if a corp wants to use it in their show then I'm fine with that. I think that the switch to Bb trumpets from G bugles makes financial sense and as for me I would much rather be playing my trumpet as opposed to my G bugle any day. I'm fine with amplification and the use of trombones as solo instruments. I would not like to see trombones on the field as I think they are unwieldy and, to be honest, geeky. Yes, I have seen those great trombone suicide video's but lets allow that for the bands. It's been a while but I thought the change to the 3rd valve was a no-brainer and can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to go back to a more limited instrument. Reed instruments? I think DC should remain a brass ensemble but I wouldn't have a problem with a rule that allowed the limited use of the saxophone as a solo instrument only amplified of course. Their are many other changes I could list but I think I've proved my point. Having said this I will now repeat a quote I entered in a previous thread "Beware the camel's nose for once he has his nose under the tent the rest of him will follow." I would not want DC to go full out Bando. I will admit that my previous opinions do bring it close to what many in DC fear the most and that is a loss of identity and history. No one wants that tidal wave of bando's to supplant us with their "one day at band camp" stories.

As for 7567BC I ask, how does one cloak brutal honesty?

Edited by Bsader
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To get back on topic, a bit.

I am a Facebok friend of some well known drum corps names, as I know many other DCP posters are too, and because I am a friend of these people, all kinds of kids in drum corps appear in my people I may know section as potential friends. These young people call 52 year olds Dad, so I don't send them friend requests, but I have noticed some of the majors. Most are science or business majors, not music majors, and some kids who I do know who march who are so called music majors, are music education majors, not performance majors. In other words, they want to be teachers.

Now the best English teachers are usually those who love to read and probably want to be writers, the best math teachers find numbers fascinating. Many award winning science teachers leave the professional world and use their gifts in a classroom. So if we take a kid who spends a summer in an organization that promotes musical excellence, self sacrifice, dedication, and working as a team and he/she wants to teach music, which could include a high school band as well as teaching the triangle to first graders and flutaphones to third graders, isn't a person on fire with music who we want?

Now since this is the historical section, and I'm from the Boston area, I knew some who organized the "neighborhood kids," people such as Fr. Charlie Duggan, Fr. Joe Kierce, Pete Nuccio (not through drum corps, but some other charitable work) and while I only met George Bonfiglio once, I know his reputation very well. Do you think they'd scoff at these "music majors" or see them as those who share their ideals?

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I for one certainly don't scoff at music majors. I wish I had the overall talent and knowledge that my youngest brother possesses. He was a member of the Boston Crusader's and went on to attend The New England Conservatory of music as a performance major. I understand your point that these kids are not all music majors that even an English or Math major will end up being a more well rounded human being from having Drum Corp and a Music experience in their lives.

The problem I have is that my brother wouldn't have been able to afford to join the Crusader's of today so he never would have found his way to the Conservatory. He probably wouldn't have found music through school because music only entered our home through Drum Corp when our sister joined the Crusader's in 1968. She was followed by her 5 brothers. None of us would have been able to afford to join the current day Crusader's. In fact almost all of the Crusader's who marched with me back in my day would not be able to afford to be a Crusader now. I could take it even further to say that it is quite possible that many of George Bonfiglio's 27th Lancer's and many members of the North Star would not be able to afford present day Drum Corp. In the case of the North Star I would assume that could include both Jerry Noonan and Danny Lutz both of whom ended up at Berkley. That's only mentioning the top 3 Corps in the Boston Area.

Now to state the obvious, the reason that so many of us back in the day could not afford present day Drum Corp really isn't just about the money it's about the time. If you graduated High School and didn't go to college that meant you obviously needed to find a job that allowed you 8 weeks off in the summer. Of course no one could. So this was my question, and I admit total ignorance as to how things were decided. Was it a conscious decision to create a touring schedule that would prohibit young working adults from marching Drum Corp? If this is the case then how could this have been allowed to happen?

Tim K you talk about a kid on fire with music as the ones you want. But my question was and is when were the young working class adults no longer wanted? Was it just business. Again, I plead ignorance but I have also noticed that no one has answered this question.

Edited by Bsader
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I for one certainly don't scoff at music majors. I wish I had the overall talent and knowledge that my youngest brother possesses. He was a member of the Boston Crusader's and went on to attend The New England Conservatory of music as a performance major. I understand your point that these kids are not all music majors that even an English or Math major will end up being a more well rounded human being from having Drum Corp and a Music experience in their lives.

The problem I have is that my brother wouldn't have been able to afford to join the Crusader's of today so he never would have found his way to the Conservatory. He probably wouldn't have found music through school because music only entered our home through Drum Corp when our sister joined the Crusader's in 1968. She was followed by her 5 brothers. None of us would have been able to afford to join the current day Crusader's. In fact almost all of the Crusader's who marched with me back in my day would not be able to afford to be a Crusader now. I could take it even further to say that it is quite possible that many of George Bonfiglio's 27th Lancer's and many members of the North Star would not be able to afford present day Drum Corp. In the case of the North Star I would assume that could include both Jerry Noonan and Danny Lutz both of whom ended up at Berkley. That's only mentioning the top 3 Corps in the Boston Area.

Now to state the obvious, the reason that so many of us back in the day could not afford present day Drum Corp really isn't just about the money it's about the time. If you graduated High School and didn't go to college that meant you obviously needed to find a job that allowed you 8 weeks off in the summer. Of course no one could. So this was my question, and I admit total ignorance as to how things were decided. Was it a conscious decision to create a touring schedule that would prohibit young working adults from marching Drum Corp? If this is the case then how could this have been allowed to happen?

Tim K you talk about a kid on fire with music as the ones you want. But my question was and is when were the young working class adults no longer wanted? Was it just business. Again, I plead ignorance but I have also noticed that no one has answered this question.

In the mid to late 70's, North Star, BAC, and 27th had some kids from Lynn, Revere, Hyde Park, Charlestown, etc., but there were also quite a few kids from Norwood, Franklin, Medway, Mansfield, the Attleboros, and other middle class but not necessarily affluent suburbs of Boston as well as a growing number of out of state kids. I knew quite a few people who marched with these corps and while most were not from wealthy backgrounds, they could at least afford not to have a summer job and still go to college, which is more than most working class kids of the 1970's could do. So I think you have to go a bit farther back than the Jerry Noonan days for truly working class corps.

I don't think you can say working class people were no longer wanted in drum corps. So many things changed that contributed to changes in drum corps. One major factor would be the expense of corps. Another is the flight to the suburbs. Many corps were run by churches but people no longer looked to church activities as social outlets. Schools have better music programs and there are more of a variety of activities available to kids. There are a host of reasons but class discrimination is not one of them.

Personally I would love to see more corps and a more affordable activity. I miss not just the greats but also the small scrappy corps that weren't all that great but had heart and thought they were national champions. Yes a corps of today would want to imitate Bluecoats or Crown, just as back in the day corps tried to imitate Bridgemen, and I know we wouldn't see traditional guards or g bugles, but I know I'd still enjoy them, but for that to happen, people would have to see the need and that's something else that's changed.

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If you are a College student and choose not to march Drum Corp but instead work a 40 hour a week summer job that paid $10.00 per hour and you work that job 12 weeks over the course of the summer that's $4,800 dollars you earn to help pay for College as opposed to the approximately $3,000 dollars you might pay to march Drum Corp and that's a difference of $7,800 dollars per year. Spread over 4 years that comes to $31,200.00 or approximately one full year of tuition. (Taxes not included) So we are not just talking about the 2 factors of going to College and choosing to not work the summer but the 3 factors of going to College, not working the summer and paying to march Drum Corp. That's a lot of tuition to be paid off in the future for opting to spend 4 years of fun in the sun. Hopefully my numbers are grossly inaccurate.

The other question pertained to those who, upon graduation, did not choose to or could not afford to go to College. This would include almost all of the Boston Crusader's of the '70's and, I am assuming, almost all of the North Star and 27th Lancers as well and I am including those from the cities and the suburbs. These are the people that I'm truly focusing on. They would not be able to march present day Drum Corp unless they found a job that allowed them at least 8 weeks off. So I feel my point is valid in that the decision by D.C.I. to expand the tour to 8 weeks must have been a conscious decision to exclude working class young adults. If that was a necessary economic decision then I hope that those who had to make that decision and those that allowed the decision to be made at least lost some sleep over it. You are talking about the exclusion of a lot of young adults and this causes me to choose to reiterate my point that set 7567BC on fire, and not with music. The Boston Crusader's are guilty of hypocrisy in getting all Orwellian over the G7 because the Crusader's are now an organization that has set itself apart as well.

Edited by Bsader
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Let's hope Bsader and 7567BC that you both have vented enough. As one who has been thrown under the bus for remarks about the Saders that dose not pass the smell test of some, whether on the Hysterical or World Class groups, maybe any posts like the ones recently typed could be done with PM's to each other. I will always believe that the Crusaders have had the hardest time of any corps, still competing, to stay afloat. Some of their financial struggles 30-40 years ago were worse than some corps who have closed up shop recently. Top 5 is doable for them, but will be a fight, even if their financial house is much stronger, so please consider taking your argument elsewhere.

Possibly post #722 covers some of the areas we should consider when talking about any corps one loves and supports.

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php/topic/160622-staff-merrigoround/page-73

Edited by Ghost
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I'm done with 7567BC but I'm not done waiting for the answers to my questions. It seems apparent to me that they are making people uncomfortable as I feel they are being avoided. Whether this is due to a collective sense of guilt I don't know. I will try posing them more clearly. The questions once again. In what year did D.C.I. change the length of tour to 8 weeks and why was this allowed to happen when it must have been obvious that such a change would preclude young working adults from continuing to march in Drum Corp and for future young working adults to ever be able to participate in Drum Corp? Wasn't it obvious? Didn't people realize what the results of such a decision would be? Did everyone just turn a blind eye? As I've said before I am ignorant as to what actually occurred and in saying so I should probably not be making the assumptions I am making but I don't think I'm being left with an alternative.

I also need to admit that, in regards to 7567BC, I don't know what PM's are as I am relatively new at social media. In fact DCP is the only group that I am involved with.

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I wasn't there at the time, but I doubt they did it on purpose. Someone who was there at the time should give the answers, but as I imagine things occurred - they either (A) wanted to create essentially a superleague of the best corps so they could have the best competitions possible, or (B) they just wanted to create an independent league where they controlled the rules, payouts, etc., or © a combination of both. Once started down that road, however, they found that the "best" corps, or the ones willing to join their new league, were scattered all across the country. Therefore, no more convenient regional circuits on weekends, with a final national championship on the road - they had to go on the road all summer long.

The consequence of having to say goodbye to the marchers who couldn't make that summer-long commitment was probably something that didn't cross their minds. But as I said, I was only born in 1967, so the move from AL/VFW to DCA/DCI was happening while I was a baby, and I could be way off base.

PS - would love to take you up on your offer of assistance, but we're down in New Jersey.

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To be fair, Bsaider's sentiments are what many of us feel, namely that drum corps, and since I'm from the Boston area I have to add the drill teams and CYO bands that populated the area, were great opportunities that shaped our lives. Where many of us differ is the belief that DECI deliberately pushed working class skids out of drum corps. Also, in our quick rush to blame DCI we tend to forget that DCI is governed by corps directors, so it is the corps that have survived, not DCI, who has made drum corps so costly. Also, by vilifying all drum corps, we forget there are scholarships available, and from what I understand BAC is one of the more helpful corps for kids in need. Surf has a similar reputation, and the man who is a lightning rod on this site--George Hopkins, has made sure that any qualified kid who wants to march with Cadets can do so.

Now suppose that all of us who have been touched by drum corps either as a fan or former member, sent $25 to a fund to provide scholarships to marchers, and we gave the scholarships to kids from working class to poverty level backgrounds, every kid who ants to march probably could do so, but would we all put our money where our mouth is?

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Eleran, your still my hero and the fact that your in Jersey doesn't mean I can't offer some financial assistance. It wouldn't be much as I've just taken early retirement but if it helps in anyway in establishing a smaller grass roots movement of drum corps then I'm in. I know your only focused on your infant Corp, as you should be, but maybe it could inspire others.

As an X-Crusader who marched from the mid to late 70's I can tell you that it can be amazing what a small Drum Corp can accomplish with no money. And that's not even mentioning the sound that can be produced by a small ensemble of a mere 25 brass players. In 1979 we had just that, 25 brass, but we produce such a sound that often people would approach us going on as to how talented we must be. The fact was we weren't all that talented. The truth is one of our sopranos hadn't even started playing until apx. 8 months prior to the start of the season. What we did have was a group of players who were not going to hold anything back. I do not have anywhere near the understanding of music that I'm sure you have but I will give you some humble advice that I feel was the secret to all those great, small Crusader Brass sections.

The Boston Crusaders sing their Corp song Giant prior to every show and it is a time when the Corp comes together in remembrance of their past and to appreciate the moment and it is a wonderful moment but after that moment was over I always felt like I was on my own as I know many of us did. Of course we knew we were part of an ensemble and that required all the necessary awareness of this fact but I'm talking about owning the fact that you were a Boston Crusader and living up to what that meant. Which was really more about living up to the persona of what was and is the Boston Crusader's. It was all about, look at me because I am the best thing you are going to see tonight or listen to me because I am the best thing you are going to hear tonight. It had nothing to do with whether this was true or not because in fact, as I said, it wasn't true. But we made it true in our heads. We were going to blow the doors down irregardless as to whether we actually should have been able to.

The Boston Crusader's had a reputation of being tough back in those days but the fact is we had more than a few puppy dogs in the Corp. That is until they put on the uniform and stepped on to the field. We embraced arrogance collectively but I think even more importantly as individuals. Think of it as if your kids are actor's taking on the role of the performer you want them to be and more importantly what they want to be. Teach them to transform themselves when they put on their uniform. Teach them to be invincible. They might not get it at first and in fact most of them will probably be hiding behind the bell of their horn for some time but maybe one day they'll find it and that's a great place to be when you see them finally realize that they can be a shy pimply faced kid off the field but on the field they can be a Giant. The 1979 Crusader's had no right producing the sound we had and so the question is where did that sound come from. It came from within us the moment we set foot on that field.

​I know this is all a bit intense and I suppose more than a bit intense for a fledgling corp and the fact is that pursuing this advise may just scare the hell out of the parents. But if you take it slow then they just may find their way. I hadn't expected this to run on as it has and I really don't know why I should think you would want my advice but I guess I still have a bit of that arrogance in me.

As far as everything else, I do appreciate your input. I do believe that their is a fine line between purposely doing something and knowingly doing something as I feel that it couldn't have not crossed their minds as to what would be the inevitable exclusion of many young working adults.

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