Criticizing the "Kids"

[Brian Porter-Szucs]

Quite frequently on these discussion forums, someone will respond to a critical comment with an appeal to speak positively about the efforts of the young people who work so hard and show so much dedication. Even more extreme in this regard is the writing on DCI's website and Facebook page, which has all the edginess of a corporate press release. As a parent, I'm sympathetic to this sentiment. On the other hand, I'm struck by the double-standard implied by this attitude. Just turn on sports talk radio during any discussion of college basketball or football--I doubt you will every hear someone say that we shouldn't criticize a players, but instead focus on their hard work and commitment. Do we really want to suggest that "our kids" in DCI (who are, after all, the same age as NCAA athletes) are too delicate to withstand the judgmental critique we all routinely subject university athletes to? I'm not holding up the way we treat athletes as a model, because it is way to extreme and objectifying in the other direction. But I do think that someone who is talented enough and dedicated enough to join a World Class DCI corps should be ready for the fact that their performances will be viewed and assessed not only by the official judges, but by all of us. To be clear: a rude or gratuitous attack is always wrong, but in my opinion the standards for deciding what falls into that category should be the same whether the individuals are governed by the NCAA or DCI.

[George Dixon]

Not the same thing:

1. the "kids" in the top sports programs in the NCAA (being discussed on sports radio) are riding full scholarships in extremely well funded programs, they are horrifically coddled compared to the DCI "athlete"

2. you are comparing a sports activity to a musical art activity - in DCI only the top 3 or 4 corps are well funded, the "design" represents much of the "score" - not how many times they drive a ball through a hoop

3. the top "kids" in the top sports programs in the NCAA go on to earn potentially millions in professional ranks. Their are no "professional" drum corps. Some DCI "kids" go on to be a middle school or high school music teacher at very low salaries

4. DCI kids literally PAY to do this. Much of the "staff" volunteers or even loses money by "working for" the corps

5. DCI isn't a thriving, well-known activity that gets national broadcasts on commercial tv with fans in the millions -- it is a virtually thankless, hot, difficult, unappreciated, tough "love" that doesn't result in a congratulatory phone call from the White House when you win a major championship

All that said - most of the "criticism" on here isn't directed at the "kids" in the first place

George.

Edited July 7, 2015 by George Dixon

[BRASSO]

I have expressed the very same sentiments on here before.

We rarely, if ever, encounter personal attacks on DCI marchers here... or anywhere else. Most, if not all, criticisms are reserved almost entirely toward adults in some capacity.. be in staff of Corps, or DCI HQ staff.

College amateur athletes, many just 18-22, are subjected almost daily to some of the most vile, vitriolic, hateful fan behaviors one can imagine. This personal assault comes from students of other colleges and universities, but it also can be routinely witnessed coming from adults towards these athletes, and they should know better. Athletes on the road in particular are subjected to boos, catcalls, profanity, etc from the moment the team busses arrive at the stadium for competition and they depart from the busses. Its not confined to team either... the verbal assaults can be personal, and name directed oftentimes. Most coa hes properly prepare their 18-22 year olders for these routine expected experiences, and most as a result are able to shrug or chuckle it off, and stay focused on whats at hand.

[BRASSO]

Not the same thing:

1. the "kids" in the top sports programs in the NCAA (being discussed on sports radio) are riding full scholarships in extremely well funded programs, they are horrifically coddled compared to the DCI "athlete"

I did Drum Corps, and was a college athlete( Div. 3, baseball pitcher ). We were not on " scholarship". My program was not " well funded ". The buses we rode on were far worse than the ones I took to Drum Corps. My baseball team was heckled all the time on the road. It goes with the territory. I was not " horrifically coddled " as a college athlete. ( although at some colleges, Div 1 levels they can be ). Most students who play college sports are not on " scholarship ". The ones that are, are at the upper echelon of the NCAA and they are in the minority. College athlete heckling is not reserved for just the athletes at the NCAA DIV 1A that are on " scholarship " and for just the ones that are ( your words ) " horrifically coddled ". My first exposure to heckling began as an athlete even before I got to college. It began when I was 15, and played Babe Ruth League Baseball, and then later as a H.S. Baseball pitcher, playing on the road. By contrast, I was never subjected to heckling by fans in Drum Corps participation... ever.

Edited July 7, 2015 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

To summarize, DCI Marchers are not subjected to personally directed criticisms. There are no criticisms of marchers of this nature here on DCP. So its a non story for DCP, imo.

That said, there are criticisms of Corps, staff that appear from time to time on here. It ranges from (" I don't particularly like this years's show right now " ) that seem tame and uncontroversial to ( " all that Corps staff should be shot ") that can be harsh and controversial. While its the negatives that seem to get the ink, the majority of comments on here regarding DCI Corps and the shows strike a pretty good percentage wise balance of both criticisms as well as approvals.... with the majority of comments falling on the approval side. Its the twitter world, with predominantly the younger generation, where the comments about DCI Corps found there can REALLY get ugly sometimes. But that level of postings, by contrast, are not as prevalent here on DCP, imo.

Edited July 7, 2015 by BRASSO

[C.Holland]

I'll be honest with you. I critique corps on this site show reviews and I read all the others. I also critique the shows themselves. I think it is a valuable feedback tool for show operators. I'm aware that lots of people in the corps read this, and show operators read this. But I try to structure it in a way that is constructive. I think everyone does. We do it because there's not really a feedback box at the individual shows, and we love this activity, and discussing the activity.

I think if you listen to ESPN radio, shows like Mike and Mike attempt to do the same for pro and college sports. I was an athlete in high school, I still play sports in a travel league and am extremely competitive, but even when coaching my team, I try to be constructive instead of destructive in my comments. The same as when I teach, I try to be constructive instead of destructive in comments.

Now the people who write for DCI pages, I don't know what their process is. I wish they'd give me a job. That would be awesome. To have a job where you travel, watch shows, talk to performers and staffs, and write. Hey DCI... hire me to write. Or at least tell me whom to send samples in application. k? thanks.

I think one of the big things that as this activity evolves, and gets further and further away from a tick system (where strikes counted against make up your score) its hard to speak poorly about a performer that is attempting to achieve a performance that many of us on here didn't have to do. And to be honest, it takes a lot to want to do this. To spend large bags of money, beat on doors for sponsors, rehearse 12 hours in the scorching sun or drizzling rain, ride hours on a bus only to rinse and repeat. Your score is no longer based as much on performance as it is on a show the corps has paid for. So it's hard to fault anyone on the field, when a good portion of your score comes from something they have absolutely zero control over.

Its not like football, or baseball, where an opponent has a direct effect on your objective. its not even like golf where everyone has the same objective, and simply has to execute. It's art. In motion. It's more like gymnastics or figure skating. (yeah i'm not a fan of that comparison but its all I can think of right now on only one cup of coffee) So to be over critical of performers in an activity where the scoring system is like comparing apples and forks, is kind of futile. I like to think of it more as in how did they hold my attention, how do they feature their talents, and how is their technique in this performance.

Edited July 7, 2015 by C.Holland

[onthe50]

Everybody is a "Judge." What happened to going to shows to enjoy the performances? That's why they practice so hard...........

[Plan9]

Interesting subject. Having lived through the tumultuous years with BD 08-12 it was obvious that many critics felt a strong compulsion to rant on about how much they hated the direction of the corps and how it would "ruin" the activity. This was obviously agenda-filled and many railed on about the how they booed. not at the kids but at the show design.....not something that is easily parsed out on the field when you're looking up at the crowd having just rung yourself out to perform for them. Yes, it's a competition and when you are a homer for one corps or another and are filled with emotion and want them to score better you may find it necessary to burst out with some comment showing your displeasure when one of these new ideas in design beats them. But the kind of nonsense that SOI in the late 80's - early 90's, Cadets 07-09 and BD 08-12 witnessed was off the charts. In the end, there was no paradigm shift that ruined drum corps.... just a shift in performance possibilities and a knowledge (from the designers) that complexity of performance comes in different forms and it is up to the judges and eventually the audience to recognize it. In BD's case, the judges caught on pretty quickly and saw the things they were doing were difficult to execute, smartly designed and very complex... and the numbers reflected that difficulty.

It always amazed me how when one corps "explores" new performance techniques and designs, how traditionalists (Dinos) immediately attack it and demand that the offending corps "fix itself" and get in line with what they think is appropriate drill and music. Just baffling to me. 7 corps could have performed before them in traditional design and one corps does something different and it's an obimination. I'm also not so naive to recognize that it's not so much the design that turns the screws of the traditionalists, it's the winning scores in the face of other traditional options. I feel that a show that demonstrates other dimensions of the art form is necessary to keep the activity fresh and new and inspiring to the new kids that are entering it, and we should celebrate the difference and applaud the effort.

As far as the OP's thoughts, yeah, they'll all grown ups and criticisim is part of our human experience, why should drum corps be different? True.... but when you're standing on that field after 12 minutes of doing it perfect...and for one simple reward....appreciation... that logic is lost.

[George Dixon]

I did Drum Corps, and was a college athlete( Div. 3, baseball pitcher ). We were not on " scholarship". My program was not " well funded ". The buses we rode on were far worse than the ones I took to Drum Corps. My baseball team was heckled all the time on the road. It goes with the territory. I was not " horrifically coddled " as a college athlete. ( although at some colleges, Div 1 levels they can be ). Most students who play college sports are not on " scholarship ". The ones that are, are at the upper echelon of the NCAA and they are in the minority. College athlete heckling is not reserved for just the athletes at the NCAA DIV 1A that are on " scholarship " and for just the ones that are ( your words ) " horrifically coddled ". My first exposure to heckling began as an athlete even before I got to college. It began when I was 15, and played Babe Ruth League Baseball, and then later as a H.S. Baseball pitcher, playing on the road. By contrast, I was never subjected to heckling by fans in Drum Corps participation... ever.

he was comparing it to football/basketball programs being discussed on sports radio

in other words - a top NCAA Div I program...

[31rabbit]

It always amazed me how when one corps "explores" new performance techniques and designs, how traditionalists (Dinos) immediately attack it and demand that the offending corps "fix itself" and get in line with what they think is appropriate drill and music. Just baffling to me.

there's another thread floating around saying that a certain corps is too 'old fashioned' and needs to fix itself.

what's a design staff to do? can't please 'em all.