GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Putting numbers aside, The "Power " was and has always been in the hands of the performer. Who presents it? who makes it work or doesn't?who communicates it to an audience and a judge? Who brings a product to life? ALL done by performers. The best design in the world if not done well and correctly is only dots on paper and a thought that never quite materializes. A good staff puts the power into the hands of the MMs with good design, good training, etc etc Edited August 30, 2015 by GUARDLING 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) I think you're overlooking one important thing. Sure, the performance is for the marchers, but the program doesn't belong to the marchers only. It's as much a competition between the organizations themselves as it is a competition between the marchers. When a corps wins the Founder's Trophy, the entire organization wins it, not just those who marched. When a movie wins an award, it isn't just those who acted in the movie who gets to partake in the award, it's everyone who was involved in producing it. So yes, show design IS judged, albeit in an indirect way. A received score reflects not only the marchers, but those who designed it, those who hired the designers, the board, the director, the volunteers, etc. It's a group effort. This is the way it is, and the way it should be, but most people assume the activity is just for those who are performing on the field. They are just a part of the organization... ...A win for BD, or Crown, or Cadets, etc., is just as much a win for the organization as a whole as it is for those who perform the show... I like this. I always wondered why the 'director' of the corps, who is not a musical director on the field, and most likely never in rehearsal, is acknowledged after the show. 'Under the direction of David Gibbs, the BLUE DEVILS!' etc. So according to your logic, the director has overall responsibility for the entire project, and the entire corps project is put out there on the field, so of course he should be mentioned. I know you didn't bring this particular thing up, but I have been thinking about it and this seems to make sense of it, at least for me at this point. Edited August 30, 2015 by mfrontz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Just musing... One of the charges increasingly made against educators (or education in general) is that they do little more than "teach to the test." Instead of providing a broad-based education in any specific curricular area, class time is now spent drilling specific facts or information into students heads which they will be expected to spit back at a later date upon some examination, whether it be one of local, state, or national level. Sometimes, the "hidden gems" of a subject area are now rendered superfluous, and skipped over, because they are not deemed "examination pertinent." I sometimes wonder if the same might be at least partially true of this activity as well, only changing "teaching to the test" to "teaching to the sheet." As I said, just musing... Edited August 30, 2015 by HornTeacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Personally, I felt that Crown was this way for most of this season. Up until a few weeks before finals, I felt that their design was not at the level of any of the other top 6 corps, but they performed the h*** out of the show (pun completely intended). It certainly improved going down the stretch, but still. A lot of the season Crown was out of the hunt because of their design, but they were able to tweak it sufficiently by the end. This was pretty impressive, IMO, because I thought they were done for with their show design in mid July... Their tweaks moved them to a top 2-3 design, which is where they finished. Without the design changes, they are sitting in 4th/5th. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) I would be interested to know when a talented group rescued an average design. Not being snarky, just would like an example. I would hold pending evidence that in every era the shows that won competitively were also the best designed for their time. Probably because MM talent gravitates heavily now to the corps in the off seaaon with the adult created Show Designs that are most rewarded heavily on the judging sheets. Its not that Show Designs were not rewarded on the scoring sheets in the past. Ifs that the adult created Show Design is more heavily rewarded on the newer, recently changed scoring sheets than perhaps ever before. For example ( of a dozen we could provide ), the Cadets and Crown this season both had equally hard working MM's. Late in the last 2 closing weeks of season, the adult staffers in the Cadets made a uniform change for their MM's ( and a brought back of the old Z pull they've used about a half dozen times now in their closer over the years ), while the adult staffers in Crown made a major Show Design change for the closer that changed the entire dynamic of their Show Design thematically and brought it all together. Do I think this was the principal reason that this had Crown pass Cadets the last week of the season ? Yes, I would say so. This would be my observation and assessment anyway. Edited August 30, 2015 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrothgar15 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Probably because MM talent gravitates heavily now to the corps in the off seaaon with the adult created Show Designs that are most rewarded heavily on the judging sheets. Its not that Show Designs were not rewarded on the scoring sheets in the past. Ifs that the adult created Show Design is more heavily rewarded on the newer, recently changed scoring sheets than perhaps ever before. For example ( of a dozen we could provide ), the Cadets and Crown this season both had equally hard working MM's. Late in the last 2 closing weeks of season, the adult staffers in the Cadets made a uniform change for their MM's ( and a brought back of the old Z pull they've used about a half dozen times now in their closer over the years ), while the adults in Crown made a major Show Design change for the closer that changed the entire dynamic of their Show Design thematically and brought it all together. Do I think this was the principal reason that this had Crown pass Cadets the last week of the season ? Yes, I would say so. This would be my observation and assessment anyway. Spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) What put Phantom Regiment over the top the last week of the season in 2008 ? Was it the principally the performers, or was it the decision by adult staffers of Phantom to cleverly change the entire theme of the show with the spearing of the DM on the podium ( the bad Roman ) by the Slave ( the good guys ) ? I'd say it was the latter. The fact that this was all successfully accomplished by a single non musical playing MM is also so noted. When we are talking about so little in tenths and points separating Corps, it is principally what adults do with the Show Design that makes the difference now on the new judging sheets. Add in the fact that Corps no longer have Drum judges... Brass Judges.... Guard judges... ( all predominently execution level judging captions ) anymore in half their DCI summer competitions now, and its pretty much a slam dunk on how important the adult created Show Design is on the Judging sheets... and even more so than ever before now. Things do change. And this is just one of them. Edited August 30, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) A lot of the season Crown was out of the hunt because of their design, but they were able to tweak it sufficiently by the end. This was pretty impressive, IMO, because I thought they were done for with their show design in mid July... Their tweaks moved them to a top 2-3 design, which is where they finished. Without the design changes, they are sitting in 4th/5th. You are quite right and nothing wrong with that. Some here are trying to separate all these things. They shouldnt be. One does not work without the other. so adults contributed to the program. When didnt they in our activity. A trainer for a skater, etc etc. they contribute. Some always want to look at this whole thing as one thing verses another. IMO when that happens one is only looking at 1 part of a program and not the entire picture. Funny how some will talk about less execution today yet IMO corps execute better than ever. One has to only and objectively revisit some old tapes to see that. Some will disagree Im sure and thats not a problem..lol ( no debate please ) Maybe those who have been involved in the process have a different view of this all because they do realize one does not work without the other and can not be separated . Ive seen some corps ( usually newer staff ) try to do this( separate) it doesnt work and is meaningless. The MMs are in control of everything that happens on that field. Does a good design push one forward? of course it does as well as the opposite but the same can be said of other captions. Does design carry maybe more weight ( all about the visuals? ) ok, and? Maybe some want it reversed BUT obviously those who make these rules like it at least for now just the way it is. welcome to 2015. I believe you will see even more diversity from very basic to the extreme elaborate in the very near future. The pushing of the envelope will continue, some things will work some not so much but it will happen. One more thing. As a staff person I think it's more advantageous to think of all involved as 1 team. Not like it may have been at one time. JMO and a perspective I think shared by many staffers, at least i hope. Edited August 30, 2015 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Funny how some will talk about less execution today yet IMO corps execute better than ever. What in Hades are you rambling about ? Nobody on this thread... not a single, solitary poster ( let alone " some posters " ) are talking about MM's doing " less execution today ", or that they don't " execute better than ever ". Its not something said on this thead. Its exists in your mind alone. You're just posting more rambling incoherence once again... about things that are wholly and completely unrelated in every way with this thread topic, and furthermore, something that nobody expressed at all on this thread topic thread, nor anywhere else here on DCP before, as near as I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) What in Hades are you rambling about ? Nobody on this thread... not a single, solitary poster ( let alone " some posters " ) are talking about MM's doing " less execution today ", or that they don't " execute better than ever ". Its not something said on this thead. Its exists in your mind alone. You're just posting more rambling incoherence once again... about things that are wholly and completely unrelated in every way with this thread topic, and furthermore, something that nobody expressed at all on this thread topic thread, nor anywhere else here on DCP before, as near as I can tell. If you can put your bad manners to rest for a minute YOU yourself pointed out less execution judges on the field. Thats what i was talking about. and that even with less judges up close corps execute better . STOP LOOKING FOR TROUBLE... pathetic. A word i know you are used to DAN! Funny how you point something out that is in your twisted mind thinks has nothing to do with a topic yet you are the queen of hijacking. One line of a post then run with it. HMM defines troll pretty well. How about an adult response like ( what do you mean about execution ) or Yes we may be talking about design over execution BUT) of course not you are obviously on attack with those who see thru you always. No response needed...thanks Edited August 30, 2015 by GUARDLING 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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