Blog Posts are Killing DCA, not the Reading Buccaneers

[littleBknown]

Recently, there have been a few blog posts traveling the web suggesting that the Reading Buccaneers are killing DCA. If you read a little further into the posts, you will find that the author has some radical ideas to help fix DCA. Some of the ideas include having a championship corps not compete the following season in an effort to allow another corps a chance to win.

To me, it sounds like this blog poster is looking to have a corps fold because they win too much. Essentially, this is what could happen if a corps was forced to sit out of championships for a year. HOW IS THIS GOOD FOR THE CIRCUIT??? This is the exact same "Soccer Mom, everybody wins" mentallity that drives the public crazy!!!

What I do know is this.The Reading Buccaneers have driven DCA to a place many thought it would have never gotten to. They have risen the performance bar and A LOT of corps are rising to the challenge. There will come a day when the Reading Buccaneers are no longer champions, and DCA will be better because of the hard work, sweat, and dedication given from the members and staff of the Buccaneers.

You may not be a fan and you may not be a proud alumni any longer, but don't attack one group for something out of their control. You end your post with "I would end this note by warning everyone if you don’t do something, people could lose interest in the competitive aspects of DCA". If you want it to change, come out from behind your keyboard and make it happen.

[ShutUpAndPlayYerGuitar]

You're talking about Lee Rudnicki's blog posts. Here's one. Here's another one.

Whatever. It's a good conversation starter.

I disagree with most of his points, however. There's plenty of factors keeping butts out of seats. Competitive parity isn't one.

[littleBknown]

You're talking about Lee Rudnicki's blog posts. Here's one. Here's another one.

Whatever. It's a good conversation starter.

I disagree with most of his points, however. There's plenty of factors keeping butts out of seats. Competitive parity isn't one.

I didn't want to call anybody out in particular....but okay

[N.E. Brigand]

You're talking about Lee Rudnicki's blog posts. Here's one. Here's another one.

Whatever. It's a good conversation starter.

I disagree with most of his points, however. There's plenty of factors keeping butts out of seats. Competitive parity isn't one.

Thanks for including those links in this discussion (as Kamarag also kindly did yesterday after Lee himself posted to the other thread). I agree with you that they are useful in prompting people to talk about how to make DCA better.

[ShutUpAndPlayYerGuitar]

Here's my responses to the "Competition Problem" post. I've never founded or operated a drum corps, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

• Reduce the Emphasis on Demand. DCA is supposed to be an all-age activity. Putting more emphasis on judging effect and not difficulty will give the corps with an older demographic a better chance to compete in visual and GE, and will create more exciting shows for the fans. They already have by eliminating field judges and creating the communication caption. Could maybe use some tweaking, but "reducing emphasis on demand" through more judging changes won't work.
• Show Order. At every show, the defending DCA Champion should go on FIRST, not last. This will open every show with a bang, and give the other DCA non-champions precious rehearsal time. After the Champion opens, the show goes back to regular order. Result = drum corps show culture changes, people get there early, and the class A corps actually has fans to perform to. Will never happen, but I like the "start things out with a bang" idea. I'm all for more creative show coordination.
• Emphasize GE on the Sheets, so a corps that knocks the fans on their ### with a concert of Maleguana, can compete with a boring rendition of a non-melodic noise running around the field at 220 bpm. (related to #1) See first response.
• Grand Champion. Any corps that wins four consecutive DCA Championships is awarded a huge Grand Champion trophy, goes into exhibition (performing last at every show) the next season. DCA makes this corps PR rock stars for the year Bucs play to win, not to be PR rock stars. Unless DCA gives them an insanely sweet deal, this will never happen.
• Reward Originality. DCA judges must understand that other corps do not need to beat the Buccaneers by becoming Buccaneers. A corps can entertain with hard drill and amazing difficulty, absolutely. But a corps can entertain equally well by knocking the bleachers down standing still. And a corps can entertain wearing yellow banana coats and a circus on the field, with people in animal costumes. All show styles should all be allowed to compete with a reasonable chance of winning DCA, and this is not the case right now. Not because I said so, because the historical record says so in black and white. Personally, I think that from now on, any show copied verbatim from a DCI corps (there have been many over the years) should place no higher than 9th in DCA, on the basis of a lack of originality alone. I agree that originality should be a judging consideration. 10 years ago, I was really put off by the "90s DCI redux" shows in DCA. I think we're starting to see more originality, however. Hasn't been an issue for Bucs, since ... ever? MBI is no longer Blue Devils Senior. Even though they have Meehan arranging for them, this year's show was very fresh and entertaining. MBI will be on an upward trajectory as a unique, entertaining corps. Cabs are Cabs and will always be Cabs. I didn't have a chance to see C2 this year.
• Implement a Design Team Draft, which pairs up world class design team members for whatever lower tier corps drafts them. This idea is outside the box, it may not work, or it might be as small as finding consultants to help the lower corps, or maybe it is a full fledged design team draft, where the staffs move around every year. Who knows. Doesn't fall into the scope of DCA's mission, but I love this idea. I always hate it when I see smaller groups being set up for failure ... especially when it comes to visual design. Maybe something as simple as a "Design Best Practices" handbook, IDK.
• Ditch Subjective Judging. The problem with subjective judging is that, by definition, it rewards corps who fit the model of what the judging community deems “successful.” Thus, losing corps are forced to emulate that model to be competitively successful within that system, and you end up with a lot of drum corps that look and sound the same. This is the same problem DCI has, and it’s all caused by the decision to do away with all elements of objective judging, where the judge would simply count mistake (tics), regardless of show style or demand. There is a reason that corps like the Bridgemen, VK and other outside the norm are not in the top-12 right now – they can not competitively exist in the environment. One way or another, I think an objective elements need to return to DCA judging, to encourage competitive diversity among the corps. Otherwise, a corps has to become the Buccaneers to have a reasonable chance to beat the Buccaneers, and I simply don’t see that happening in the next decade or six. I would rather not see tick system elements return. Would totally love to see a Bridgemen/VK-type corps return to DCI, but that's an issue with designers not taking risks. Looking at DCA, the Class A champion was the Govenaires, a hugely entertaining group with a unique yet competitive show.

[N.E. Brigand]

Here's my responses to the "Competition Problem" post. I've never founded or operated a drum corps, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Ditch Subjective Judging. The problem with subjective judging is that, by definition, it rewards corps who fit the model of what the judging community deems “successful.” Thus, losing corps are forced to emulate that model to be competitively successful within that system, and you end up with a lot of drum corps that look and sound the same. This is the same problem DCI has, and it’s all caused by the decision to do away with all elements of objective judging, where the judge would simply count mistake (tics), regardless of show style or demand. There is a reason that corps like the Bridgemen, VK and other outside the norm are not in the top-12 right now – they can not competitively exist in the environment. One way or another, I think an objective elements need to return to DCA judging, to encourage competitive diversity among the corps. Otherwise, a corps has to become the Buccaneers to have a reasonable chance to beat the Buccaneers, and I simply don’t see that happening in the next decade or six. I would rather not see tick system elements return. Would totally love to see a Bridgemen/VK-type corps return to DCI, but that's an issue with designers not taking risks. Looking at DCA, the Class A champion was the Govenaires, a hugely entertaining group with a unique yet competitive show.

Right, and I would add:

All judging is subjective. Ticks were subjective. Execution judging is subjective. Even if everybody agrees that, for instance, MBI had the best brass this year, that just means we all share the same subjectivity. There is no such thing as objective judging and there never, ever has been.

[JimF-LowBari]

Right, and I would add:

All judging is subjective. Ticks were subjective. Execution judging is subjective. Even if everybody agrees that, for instance, MBI had the best brass this year, that just means we all share the same subjectivity. There is no such thing as objective judging and there never, ever has been.

Yep, marched in three different Sr circuits and level of what was "tickable" varied with each circuit. DCA was strictest (most ticks) and the other circuits had mostly corps not good enough for DCA so less forgiving. Having said that I still can't get over seeing out and out mistakes and know it might affect the score if it affected the overall show enough....

Edited September 10, 2015 by JimF-LowBari

[BigW]

The Grand Champion Trophy works for JMBA in Japan... where that sort of thinking is culturally embedded. Nishihara HS went on in special exhibition as they put it 2 out of 6 years because they won their national championships 2 years in a row. Their show those years was "more fun" but still quite good.... but that's not what DCA is about.

Subjective judging... Hmm. Maybe we can bring back the style of music that was written specifically to try and cover up ticks, too. Fat, blocky, clunky, and very unmusical at its worst. Yeah, that fits into the educational model that most corps try and use to sell their programs to potential members. Yeah, that will put seats in the stands. Yeah, that makes DCA relevant in the scheme of the activity and gains respect from the other corners.

Look you give me a click-counter as many circuits used BITD, I can spool that sucker up as fast as you want depending on how nasty I am that day. Fair? Yeah, right.

As for all of the suggestions about changing the emphasis on demand, etc etc etc... already been addressed. Maybe he wants to go back 45 years to what it was. That's a non-starter. Even then people were honked off that they weren't getting credit for more ambitious programs. I guess... ahem... he just wants everyone to park it on ramps, BYAO, and let the screamers settle the final number like some DCA organization he's been affiliated with tried to do a couple of years back, eh?

Put the Champions on first. Then everyone can go home early. Yeah, that would work.

To be blunt, every time he starts whinging and riding his high horse shooting off his Red Ryder BB Guns on full auto, it reminds me of a quote from Macbeth:

"Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

If I beat Jeff to any of the points he will inevitably bring up, I'd be thrilled.

[Staccato]

Here's my responses to the "Competition Problem" post. I've never founded or operated a drum corps, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

• Reduce the Emphasis on Demand. DCA is supposed to be an all-age activity. Putting more emphasis on judging effect and not difficulty will give the corps with an older demographic a better chance to compete in visual and GE, and will create more exciting shows for the fans. They already have by eliminating field judges and creating the communication caption. Could maybe use some tweaking, but "reducing emphasis on demand" through more judging changes won't work.
• Show Order. At every show, the defending DCA Champion should go on FIRST, not last. This will open every show with a bang, and give the other DCA non-champions precious rehearsal time. After the Champion opens, the show goes back to regular order. Result = drum corps show culture changes, people get there early, and the class A corps actually has fans to perform to. Will never happen, but I like the "start things out with a bang" idea. I'm all for more creative show coordination.
• Emphasize GE on the Sheets, so a corps that knocks the fans on their ### with a concert of Maleguana, can compete with a boring rendition of a non-melodic noise running around the field at 220 bpm. (related to #1) See first response.
• Grand Champion. Any corps that wins four consecutive DCA Championships is awarded a huge Grand Champion trophy, goes into exhibition (performing last at every show) the next season. DCA makes this corps PR rock stars for the year Bucs play to win, not to be PR rock stars. Unless DCA gives them an insanely sweet deal, this will never happen.
• Reward Originality. DCA judges must understand that other corps do not need to beat the Buccaneers by becoming Buccaneers. A corps can entertain with hard drill and amazing difficulty, absolutely. But a corps can entertain equally well by knocking the bleachers down standing still. And a corps can entertain wearing yellow banana coats and a circus on the field, with people in animal costumes. All show styles should all be allowed to compete with a reasonable chance of winning DCA, and this is not the case right now. Not because I said so, because the historical record says so in black and white. Personally, I think that from now on, any show copied verbatim from a DCI corps (there have been many over the years) should place no higher than 9th in DCA, on the basis of a lack of originality alone. I agree that originality should be a judging consideration. 10 years ago, I was really put off by the "90s DCI redux" shows in DCA. I think we're starting to see more originality, however. Hasn't been an issue for Bucs, since ... ever? MBI is no longer Blue Devils Senior. Even though they have Meehan arranging for them, this year's show was very fresh and entertaining. MBI will be on an upward trajectory as a unique, entertaining corps. Cabs are Cabs and will always be Cabs. I didn't have a chance to see C2 this year.
• Implement a Design Team Draft, which pairs up world class design team members for whatever lower tier corps drafts them. This idea is outside the box, it may not work, or it might be as small as finding consultants to help the lower corps, or maybe it is a full fledged design team draft, where the staffs move around every year. Who knows. Doesn't fall into the scope of DCA's mission, but I love this idea. I always hate it when I see smaller groups being set up for failure ... especially when it comes to visual design. Maybe something as simple as a "Design Best Practices" handbook, IDK.
• Ditch Subjective Judging. The problem with subjective judging is that, by definition, it rewards corps who fit the model of what the judging community deems “successful.” Thus, losing corps are forced to emulate that model to be competitively successful within that system, and you end up with a lot of drum corps that look and sound the same. This is the same problem DCI has, and it’s all caused by the decision to do away with all elements of objective judging, where the judge would simply count mistake (tics), regardless of show style or demand. There is a reason that corps like the Bridgemen, VK and other outside the norm are not in the top-12 right now – they can not competitively exist in the environment. One way or another, I think an objective elements need to return to DCA judging, to encourage competitive diversity among the corps. Otherwise, a corps has to become the Buccaneers to have a reasonable chance to beat the Buccaneers, and I simply don’t see that happening in the next decade or six. I would rather not see tick system elements return. Would totally love to see a Bridgemen/VK-type corps return to DCI, but that's an issue with designers not taking risks. Looking at DCA, the Class A champion was the Govenaires, a hugely entertaining group with a unique yet competitive show.

1) I don't see how reducing the emphasis on demand should be considered at all. Group that marches block drill and plays long tones should not be in the same conversation as a group that is running around and playing clean runs. As long as the execution is of a high caliber then high demand on the performers should be rewarded. Anything else would play into the "soccer mom everybody wins mentality."

3) I'm not sure this guy understands GE. Effect makes up 40% of the total score. Music is only 30%, visual 20% (which indirectly effects Effect since guard is a major component of this), and communication is 10%. GE is already emphasized more than any other judged aspect of the show. Also, standing still and blasting Maleguana is only one type of effect. Judges are looking for differing ideas and how they connect to each other. A show that revolves around one type of effect should not be rewarded over a show that interweaves multiple effects. *aside: Am I the only one that is tired of hearing Maleguana and other "classic" drum corps/marching band songs?

4) Just a bad idea. Don't punish a program for being successful.

5) Tied in with 1 I think. A corps can be entertaining by standing still and playing good music. However, a corps playing the same music while running should be rewarded for meeting harder demands. It's the same idea in sports with similar scoring systems (gymnastics, diving, trampoline...). You can nail easier moves and get a max score, but your max possible score will be less than someone attempting a harder move.

6) This is really a terrible idea. If a staffing team has figured out a formula that works they should not be punished and forced to break up. Not to mention, many people out there have different teaching/design philosophies. There is no guarantee that two people who have done amazing work on their own or with their own teams will work together. There style may be too different and cause the entire corps to suffer. Also, how would this be enforced? What's to stop someone from quitting because they were drafted somewhere they didn't want to go? Or am I completely missing the point of this idea?

7) From what I've seen the problem isn't in the judging, but in the judges. I haven't seen the language on the judge sheets for DCA but I'm guessing it's not much different than that for DCI and WGI. Most comments I've heard from various staffs are that the judges are terrible. I've heard plenty of tapes to back up this position as well. Many judges will give stock answers to seem like they know what's happening without actually addressing what is happening on the field. I've heard judges make comments about DCA and DCI corps separate from the corps that is on the field. If so many people agree that there are problems with the numbers then the judges need to be fixed. Having training courses every year or two would help keep judges up to date on new trends so corps are being rewarded for pushing the envelope and using new rule changes instead of being penalized for it. Or DCA could institute a committee of selected staff members from each corps that review tapes after the season to discuss which judges are missing things or making poor comments. Of course it seems like the best solution would be to actually get new judges. We need some new blood who actually understand the state that DCA is in today and not what it was in 80s.

[MikeN]

We could just ask Lee why he's killing DCA...

Mike