Why is this HS Band show better designed than half the 2015 top 12?

[N.E. Brigand]

Methinks one would have to buy a ticket for Grand Nationals BOA championships this year to see what the props reveal.

For those (like me) who can't travel to Indianapolis over the next three days, there are live stream options for Grand Nationals, along the lines of what DCI offered this summer. There will be 90+ bands in the preliminaries on Thursday and Friday. From that pool, 30 bands perform in the semifinals early Saturday, and then 12 of those bands are selected for finals Saturday night.

[N.E. Brigand]

Agreed in that the program is much easier than a top 12, but is highly effective. Which is why I'm claiming "superior design"

DCI design place so many challenges upon the performers (see Cadets 2015) - but is it as effective? Not always...

Well, I think we're saying the same thing. In DCI, a much higher level of difficulty is expected, and many designers, struggling to create something that allows for such great execution, lose something in artistic effectiveness.

(And I can understand those viewers who look at this performance and respond, "Good! I'm glad more corps don't design like that.")

[cowtown]

Well - IMO vastly better than, say, Regiment 2015

That’s strange, seem to recall a bunch of Regiment’s staff had ties to Broken Arrow, not that I follow High School Band but there was a thread moaning about that here on DCP; Regiment being Broken Arrow Light.

Think Kuhn, Hill and Earnhart all had some time with Broken Arrow, so much for your premise

What I saw of that show, nope, not going to call it better design then half the top 12, agree with Hockey Dad's points, although I do like Festive Overture, usually at a quicker tempo, the flags, staging of the opener reminded of Regiment, was it 2001? Where we had to sit through the Bartok to get to the good, the Festive Overture Part…that woke up with a similarly stage flag hit?

But hey, it's cool you dig High School bands so much as you have a lot to pick from

[N.E. Brigand]

To me, a well designed show is one that has a definite theme...a story, if you will...that is understandable to the fans.

. . .

That said, this performance was good . . . except for their execution. Too many mistakes by the performers that might be hidden by the sheer number of them, but that took away from the quality of the show. I'd say the guard was better than the musician line. By DCI standards, they needed a whole lot more cleaning.

Whereas to me, a theme or story isn't necessary. Cadets' "Juxtaperformance" (2001) is a well-designed show.

As for execution, I agree that it's not at the DCI level. But no high school band performs at that level. This show is, allowing for a trifle more cleaning between now and Saturday, at the top level for high school marching band. Broken Arrow has a reasonable shot at first place in BoA's grand nationals (they were second last year), and while not all top-notch bands can afford to go to grand nationals every year (last year's champion isn't attending, for instance), simply making finals there puts you in the top 1% (at least!) of the nation's high school bands. If such bands were on the same field as DCI (and penalties for woodwinds were waived), how would they do? I think the best high school bands would score in the low 70s.

[mingusmonk]

Seems to be a misnomer in that original post. Just listing the first 2 rows of staff from Broken Arrow Bands' website:

Darrin Davis - DCI Judge

Kelly Pence - Phantom Regiment Brass Staff

Adam Wiencken - has staffed Crossmen, Troopers, and Santa Clara Vanguard. Most recently The Cadets (2013 and 14?)

Chris Kaflik - Director: Blue Stars Visual Caption head (through 2015)

I imagine if I had time to peruse the rest, we would find at least a couple more DCI connections.

Probably of more relevance is who exactly designed the show. Names above? Did they collaborate with a team outside of school staff? Most of their BOA competition that I know of has DCI-connected folks on their design teams.

Edited November 11, 2015 by mingusmonk

[tesmusic]

Seems to be a misnomer in that original post. Just listing the first 2 rows of staff from Broken Arrow Bands' website:

Darrin Davis - DCI Judge

Kelly Pence - Phantom Regiment Brass Staff

Adam Wiencken - has staffed Crossmen, Troopers, and Santa Clara Vanguard. Most recently The Cadets (2013 and 14?)

Chris Kaflik - Director: Blue Stars Visual Caption head (through 2015)

I imagine if I had time to peruse the rest, we would find at least a couple more DCI connections.

Probably of more relevance is who exactly designed the show. Names above? Did they collaborate with a team outside of school staff? Most of their BOA competition that I know of has DCI-connected folks on their design teams.

But if we used logic, facts, and research, then what would we have to complain about? It's easier to spout of false information and assume no one will know the difference.

[N.E. Brigand]

I don't want to criticize a HS band show. I want to say what I saw in the context of what this show does that seems to emulate what DCI has become, and thereby, make a critique of the state of modern DCI:

• Voice for the sake of voice. Check.
• Body movement for the sake of body movement. Check.
• Gratuitous rolling around on the ground. Check.
• Large clunky props that seem to be there. Without any purpose or addition to the story of the show. Check.
• Really, really good musicianship. Check.

So what I saw was a REALLY good reflection of a modern DCI show. Better design than Phantom? Give me a break. But it does contain all the bad crap DCI has morphed into.

I think you make a good point, although I would say that (1) not all good high school BoA shows use voice (Broken Arrow didn't last year, for instance); (2) while there definitely is a near-compulsory aspect to body movement in Bands of America, the real, unspoken reason it's there is to give the performers something visually interesting to do that is easier than playing while marching--plus some of it is, you know, genuinely lovely and effective; (3) see no. 2; (4) the props just look interesting, they're moved pretty well, and who needs a story?; and (5) while Broken Arrow is better than most at playing while marching, they're also as good as any at disguising the fact that the music is coming from a performer who's standing still (or perhaps kneeling).

There are, of course, plenty of more straightforward marching band shows out there that are well done in their own way and largely eschew the elements you describe. To speak of what I know best (if still not very well), Ohio high school marching bands: of about 230 groups that competed this year, only 43 participated in one or another BoA show. I would say that at least half of those 43 bands make little effort to emulate the BoA style and appeared in BoA only because the competition was conveniently located. (There are two "regionals" in Ohio, and grand nationals in Indianapolis is a pretty short drive for the many southwest Ohio bands.) That leaves about 200 groups just in this one state participating in other circuits and taking whatever approach seems best to them, using all, some, or none of the elements you mention, for better or worse. You can judge for yourself; here is probably the best non-BoA Ohio band (show starts at 2:30):

So (1) no voice; (2) very little body movement (although what's there is arguably gratuitous); (3) no rolling on the ground; (4) no props; and (5) pretty good musicianship, the more so because most of it is done on the move. But I daresay that more than a few people look at that show and feel that it's boring for those same reasons! "Yeah, they've got some talent, but they'd sound better if only they'd have the brass rolling on the ground while the woodwinds stood still to play those tricky passages. And having the band move around so much means there's no chance to stage the guard effectively. Plus if there were some props it would add visual interest and provide focus."

Edited November 11, 2015 by N.E. Brigand

[BRASSO]

Offered in discussion of:

Top instructors and designers AVOIDING DCI?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMxTzPmKedg

I'm thinking specifically of this program in comparison to: 2015 Phantom Regiment, 2015 Cadets, 2015 Cavaliers, 2015 etc...

I'd (personally) put BD, Bluecoats, Blue Knights etc above this one in terms of design

Yes, I 'd have to agree as well that this Marching Band is better in many respects than some of the DCI Marching Bands ..... bigger too. That said, keep in mind that this Marching Band utilizes instrumentation that is still disallowed in DCI, so they do currently have that inherent advantage at the moment.

Edited November 11, 2015 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

If such bands were on the same field as DCI (and penalties for woodwinds were waived), how would they do?

If these currently exclusively locally based Marching Bands were allowed to bring in MM's from all over the world ? ( as they do the DCI ? ) In my opinion, within 2-3 years, they'd give the Blue Devils a run for their money in DCI. At which point, David Gibbs would bring in the woodwinds to his BD ( securing a waiver from DCI as well ) in BD's attempts to thwart such a new upstart and to remain on top in DCI. That would be my sense of how it would play out, anyway.

That said, these local Bands can't compete with most DCI units if they are not allowed to bring in MM's from all over the world. Similarly, BD would not be able to beat this Marching Band if they were under the same mandate to secure their MM's from Concord, Calif. In such a level playing field of the requirement of locally based MM's, it would be my sense of things that this Marching Band would more than likely top the Blue Devils perhaps as early as 2016.. if not, by 2017..

Edited November 11, 2015 by BRASSO

[N.E. Brigand]

If these currently exclusively locally-based marching bands were allowed to bring in MMs from all over the world? (As they do in DCI ?) In my opinion, within two to three years, they'd give the Blue Devils a run for their money in DCI. At which point, David Gibbs would bring in the woodwinds to his BD (securing a waiver from DCI as well) in BD's attempts to thwart such a new upstart and to remain on top in DCI. That would be my sense of how it would play out, anyway.

That said, these local bands can't compete with most DCI units if they are not allowed to bring in MMs from all over the world. Similarly, BD would not be able to beat this marching band if they were under the same mandate to secure their MMs from Concord, Calif. In such a level playing field of the requirement of locally based MMs, it would be my sense of things that this marching band would more than likely top the Blue Devils perhaps as early as 2016. If not, by 2017.

You're right, there are a lot of complicating factors. If the Blue Devils were only able to recruit high school age students from the Mount Diablo Unified School District (which includes Concord), could they find enough talented members to match those in the Broken Arrow Public Schools? There are more students in BD's district (which has six large high schools) than in BA's district (which has one enormous high school). Or could BD only recruit from one high school rather than one district? And then what about timing? If the two groups were to compete against each other, would it be in the summer with a full DCI camp and training regimen or in the fall, on the more limited scholastic band rehearsal schedule and with class obligations?

(One thing that BD would not have to worry about if forced to start in parity with BA, I believe, is football games, because, if I have heard correctly, Broken Arrow H.S. actually has two marching bands: the Pride of Broken Arrow, who performs at competitions, and the Tradition of Broken Arrow, who performs at football games. If I have misunderstood, I welcome correction!)