Which 1970's 13th Place Corps...?

[cixelsyd]

It is no coincidence that these strange outcomes came in the "Age of the Tic", in fact, they constituted a major impetus to find a more balanced and objective system, a goal not fully realized even now, perhaps.

Really?

- Besides 1979 Crossmen, were any of the others really "strange outcomes"? And was the tick system the reason? 1972 Garfield missed finals largely on account of penalties, not ticks. Polish Falcon Cadets and Squires were not generally expected to make finals (and never did in any year). Troopers spent most of July 1976 at home while other corps toured, gaining experience, gaining feedback, and gaining ground. 1977 Garfield and 1978 Capital Freelancers were already around 13th in the pack during their respective seasons.

- It is also no coincidence that the same time frame gave us numerous examples of judging results responding to the performance of the day. This era saw the first DCI title go to an inspired corps from Anaheim; watched singularly hyped performances gain three positions from prelims as Muchachos did in 1974; witnessed a young Cavaliers corps on the brink of death give the performance of their lives to regain finalist status in 1974; and countless others.

- We must also note that performances varied from day to day back then, arguably moreso than today, so it should be no surprise that results varied more. Bear in mind that corps accustomed to evening contests performed during the day at DCI prelims in the 1970s. Some went on early in the morning, and others coped with the peak heat of the afternoon.

- What I find strange is that the variability of contest results decreased dramatically starting in 1980. The conversion from tick system to buildup in performance captions did not begin until 1982. This tells me that where results varied, the tick system was probably not the cause of that variability.

The tick system was not without its flaws, and we have long since moved on from it. But to cast it with sweeping blame for every unpopular scoring decision would be an overreach.

[ironlips]

"Sweeping blame"...good turn of the phrase there, but that was not my point.

All judging systems are flawed inherently. It is simply not possible to assign a quantitative value to something that is essentially qualitative, yet if we don't, there is no contest.

The tic system required each execution judge to make (literally) hundreds of decisions during each corps' performance. Often in critiques an adjudicator would be surprised to discover that a unit he or she had thought clearly superior to another had actually scored lower on their very caption tally.

The newer evaluation system required but 2 decisions, a rank and a rate, consequently holding the judge far more accountable and, presumably, resulting in a more accurate result. (Accent on "presumably").

There is no question that there were much wider scoring swings in the earlier era, for many of the reasons mentioned here and quite a few more like non-uniform rules and scoring systems, judge training....etc., but the biggest factor was the inconsistent performances of the corps themselves.

The "Touring Model" changed all that. There's nothing better than being on the road for a month for providing consistent progress day to day. Professional bands all know this. That's why they make their studio recordings at the end of the tour.

"...Also penalties aren't a huge factor in the outcome either. How many corps in the last 20 years had penalties of more than 2 points?"

This is also a great point. In the tic days, many a show was lost "on the inspection line" or for failure to comply with the VFW rules regarding tempos between 128 and 136 bpm, time in motion, size of lettering font on the bass drum (really)...etc. Most such penalties have been eliminated. Everything short of grand theft auto is probably legal.

Another ingredient in the gumbo was the sheer number of corps. There was simply much more competition at the top, middle and bottom ends of the activity. We have more predictability today because there are fewer wild cards throughout the deck.

[MikeD]

I think Mike Davis has posted elsewhere that the Cadets that year had penalties that kept them out of Finals.

****Sigh*****

My one and only DCI marching year...if I recall, we would have been 10th w/o the penalties for overtime.

.

[Northern Thunder]

****Sigh*****

My one and only DCI marching year...if I recall, we would have been 10th w/o the penalties for overtime.

.

Yes, and that would have been just 0.4 out of 8th place.

[lindap]

****Sigh*****

My one and only DCI marching year...if I recall, we would have been 10th w/o the penalties for overtime.

.

I was a T&P judge for a short time in 1976. If I had I been at your show and you were a few seconds over, I'd use my judgement. Unfortunately, in those days, one would start at a runner and if they were interested in judging, would be assigned T&P. I managed to judge M&M later in 1976 for class C, D and E. I was marching in an A corps and taught a B corps so there was no conflict of interest. My issue with being an M&M judge was that I had to look down to tic the sheet. What if I missed something after I looked up? At least the drum and horn judges could tic sound whereas I had to see! In the mid 1980's, I judged local winter guard shows and talked to a tape recorder. After the guard competed, I filled in the sheets. It was way better experience than tic and T&P.

[2B or not 2B]

It is no coincidence that these strange outcomes came in the "Age of the Tic", in fact, they constituted a major impetus to find a more balanced and objective system, a goal not fully realized even now, perhaps.

Yes, Now we live in the "Age of the French Judge"

(Think Olympics)

[ironlips]

Order of appearance in prelim shows is determined by seeding these days which produces predictability to a great extent. In the bad old days, prelims were a free-for-all with appearance order decided by things like postmarks or a random drawing. Those methods were actually more equitable and often produced surprises.

At the end of the prelims day, it's the 1st and 12th place units that have something to celebrate. Thirteen is a tough place to land. I know. Been there a few times.

Other than Garfield, have any other 13th placers ever won the cup in later years?

[Northern Thunder]

Other than Garfield, have any other 13th placers ever won the cup in later years?

Garfield's the only one.....and they did it twice. Besides 1972, they were 13th (although they qualified for finals by tying for 12th in prelims) in 1977.

[Northern Thunder]

If you go back pre-DCI:

Santa Clara was 13th at 1969 VFW, and the Royal Airs were 13th at 1960 VFW (although only 10 corps made finals that year).

Both of those great corps went on to win titles.

[elphaba01]

"Pre DCI"

The 1969 VFW Prelims had several non finalists destined for greatness. Madison Scouts (On the way back from a dismal mid sixties), 27th Lancers, as well as Santa Clara.

Going even farther back WAY back in 1962 VFW Prelims saw such "Legends in Waiting" as the Casper Troopers, St Josephs of Batavia, Blue Rock, Skokie Vanguard and the Rockford Phantom Regiment finish out of Finals.

Elphaba

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