2016 DCA - Latest Scores

[Kamarag]

What a problem I have is

:

Almost ALL " DCA " judges primarily are also " DCI" judges. So clearly they can do BOTH.

SO WHY would there be a problem with judges who do " DCI " primarily have a problem with " DCA."

There no way one group would be able to do both ACCURATELY and not the other.

(Honestly. I just do not understand. Please do not just give some hateful reply.)

No, they actually aren't. In fact, only a small few are active in both circuits. Most DCA judges only judge in DCA, at least over the last several years.

[Jeff Ream]

I just saw those scores from Mankato. I am gobsmacked that they were so low. Is there anyone on the forum in attendance at the show to shed some light on the two corps performance?

DCI judges who probably dont get the tolerances needed or did nt use DCA sheets. Since DCI no longer publishes recaps, you have no way of knowing

[Jeff Ream]

No, they actually aren't. In fact, only a small few are active in both circuits. Most DCA judges only judge in DCA, at least over the last several years.

agreed. it's a matter of education and tolerance

[BigW]

What a problem I have is

:

Almost ALL " DCA " judges primarily are also " DCI" judges. So clearly they can do BOTH.

SO WHY would there be a problem with judges who do " DCI " primarily have a problem with " DCA."

There no way one group would be able to do both ACCURATELY and not the other.

(Honestly. I just do not understand. Please do not just give some hateful reply.)

Umm, no. Even when I had more of an idea on crossover (10-15 years ago) I can readily think of maybe one Brass judge who did both at once. Right now, most if not all of the Judges out this way doing DCA aren't on the DCI list.

There may have been some who were judging both DCA and some of the Junior circuits back then (DCE, MSA, GSC, etc.), and not necessarily simultaneously. Just because someone was judging in one of those smaller junior circuits and judging on DCI sheets didn't mean they were a DCI judge. That- I definitely know.

I wouldn't call it a "problem" that they look at the DCA sheet, read the criteria on it and the rubrics, and are then very tough on assigning a number based on what's on the DCA sheet.

Why?

Those numbers from the DCI shows aren't used by DCA and really are only good to decide placements for that given contest. It's a well-known issue (it's openly discussed here for Pete's sake) that the numbers are a quart low as compared to what they'd get for that same performance with a DCA panel.

The real benefit those corps are getting are the show commentary and the post contest critique from the DCI judges and it looks to me that it's been very helpful and way more valuable than any number they get, since they then hit an actual DCA show and BAM! The numbers are all of a sudden lining up with the other DCA corps really well.

Hope that helps as well. If not, ask. John and Jeff are great and they can help me if I get too far out there.

[camel lips]

Umm, no. Even when I had more of an idea on crossover (10-15 years ago) I can readily think of maybe one Brass judge who did both at once. Right now, most if not all of the Judges out this way doing DCA aren't on the DCI list.

There may have been some who were judging both DCA and some of the Junior circuits back then (DCE, MSA, GSC, etc.), and not necessarily simultaneously. Just because someone was judging in one of those smaller junior circuits and judging on DCI sheets didn't mean they were a DCI judge. That- I definitely know.

I wouldn't call it a "problem" that they look at the DCA sheet, read the criteria on it and the rubrics, and are then very tough on assigning a number based on what's on the DCA sheet.

Why?

Those numbers from the DCI shows aren't used by DCA and really are only good to decide placements for that given contest. It's a well-known issue (it's openly discussed here for Pete's sake) that the numbers are a quart low as compared to what they'd get for that same performance with a DCA panel.

The real benefit those corps are getting are the show commentary and the post contest critique from the DCI judges and it looks to me that it's been very helpful and way more valuable than any number they get, since they then hit an actual DCA show and BAM! The numbers are all of a sudden lining up with the other DCA corps really well.

Hope that helps as well. If not, ask. John and Jeff are great and they can help me if I get too far out there.

Well this may "look" and "sound" good on paper. It simply does not work "exactly" that way in the real world for the most part.

Having closely watched the scores since 2004 I can tell you for a fact the DCI scores usually effect out of NE corps coming into championships quite a bit. They are generally/ always coming in behind the 8 ball where they "should" be.

Now you can make the argument that they are getting what they are getting and they are being judged by DCA judges on DCA sheets the same judges they are seeing at Championships all you want but chew on these facts.

Almost every year CV has gone up north early and got early reads and gotten scores "in the hunt" with the NE. When the DCI scores start factoring in all of a sudden they are pulled back away from the pack CONSIDERABLY and are clawing their way back up the ladder trying to get there. By the time they hit championships they are usually coming in down the bottom rung of the ladder. Ive seen similar scoring trends with MBI as well.

Does it effect championships? I say it does.. many will say the design of championships is to fix these type of issues and make it right. It may in some cases.. but in most..it does not.

[camel lips]

Umm, no. Even when I had more of an idea on crossover (10-15 years ago) I can readily think of maybe one Brass judge who did both at once. Right now, most if not all of the Judges out this way doing DCA aren't on the DCI list.

There may have been some who were judging both DCA and some of the Junior circuits back then (DCE, MSA, GSC, etc.), and not necessarily simultaneously. Just because someone was judging in one of those smaller junior circuits and judging on DCI sheets didn't mean they were a DCI judge. That- I definitely know.

I wouldn't call it a "problem" that they look at the DCA sheet, read the criteria on it and the rubrics, and are then very tough on assigning a number based on what's on the DCA sheet.

Why?

Those numbers from the DCI shows aren't used by DCA and really are only good to decide placements for that given contest. It's a well-known issue (it's openly discussed here for Pete's sake) that the numbers are a quart low as compared to what they'd get for that same performance with a DCA panel.

The real benefit those corps are getting are the show commentary and the post contest critique from the DCI judges and it looks to me that it's been very helpful and way more valuable than any number they get, since they then hit an actual DCA show and BAM! The numbers are all of a sudden lining up with the other DCA corps really well.

Hope that helps as well. If not, ask. John and Jeff are great and they can help me if I get too far out there.

I think if you were to ask some DCA corps why they do DCI shows its for two reasons. 1. For the opportunity to give the membership a chance to perform to a crowd. 2. RECRUITING

CV takes a HUGE hit in numbers every year at the Georgia dome.. Usually a 10 point drop. Why risk a 10 point drop ?????? Its probably one of the biggest recruiting drives of the year. !!!!!

[totaleefree]

This doesn't relate directly to this, but it is a DCI and a DCA Judge discussing DCA good insight on teh thought processes http://www.marchingroundtable.com/2015/10/07/456-dca-2015-wrap-up-pt-1/

[Dan Detweiler]

What will be interesting is next week's show in Woodstock that has DCA corps before intermission and DCI Open class corps after.

Dan

[Kamarag]

I think if you were to ask some DCA corps why they do DCI shows its for two reasons. 1. For the opportunity to give the membership a chance to perform to a crowd. 2. RECRUITING

CV takes a HUGE hit in numbers every year at the Georgia dome.. Usually a 10 point drop. Why risk a 10 point drop ?????? Its probably one of the biggest recruiting drives of the year. !!!!!

Here's the *real* ranking, for those interested:

1. Judges' Commentary (DCI commentary is exceptional)

2. Perform to crowd

3. Recruiting

Additionally, Ed says, "Having closely watched the scores since 2004 I can tell you for a fact the DCI scores usually effect out of NE corps coming into championships quite a bit."

Aside from his "it's a fact" line (it's actually just his opinion), the reality is that DCI numbers have absolutely zero effect on corps coming to DCA Championships. The corps don't care, the DCA judges don't care, and informed fans don't care. Everyone involved (well, save Ed) knows those are skewed numbers, and the only ones that matter are the DCA seeding numbers, which DCI has nothing to do with.

Listening to and acting on DCI judges' commentary is a fantastic way to make your corps better. If you're putting any stock in those numbers, however, you're doing it wrong.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Kamarag

[BigW]

Well put, John.

Loaded question, and the how to do it would be extremely daunting- Would it take 3 rounds to fix the lowball numbers instead of just 2?

I have other thoughts on it but those are even more loaded.