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And the 2014 SCV Program is: In the summer of 2014, Santa Clara Vanguard will perform Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov's "Scheherazade."

Why are folks outside of the "bubble", as seen-it-all say, capable of accepting figure skating, even ice dancing, as a sport, while being unable to believe the same of drum corps?

In less than 3 hours we will know what SCV is playing. Any guesses or wishes of what they play?

Just a little snippet of how things have been going down here in Georgia. Even with all the ice storms and tornadoes, it's still been our strongest winter to date. Hope you all can make a point to come out and see us this summer. I think you will be pleased...but then again, I freely admit to being more than a little biased! Hope all is well with everyone throughout the country. We'll see you on the 50!! https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152267741967140 Dan

You just made my point. We should wait to see what they do with what they're giving up this summer before we condemn it. Reminds me of the whole hooplah in 2011 with their uniforms. Everyone was all bent out of shape (mostly alum) before they even seen who the uniforms would work with the show.

whhhhhhhhhhhhhy?

The Season ended early that year as well. It was a 9 week season instead of 10 weeks. One more week, I think SCV would have won it.

you will not find 128 kids willing to pay to spend their summers marching symmetrical drill forms at 12:5 steps and playing Ice Castles or Danny Boy. you just won't. besides, even the most well performed shows from the 70s and early 80s have glaring performance issues. horn angles? ever check those out? timing of the feet, ensemble timing... it goes on and on. kids today (even 16 year olds) are so fundamentally good at marching band that they'd have the show maxed out in 5 days and would spend the other 11 weeks on whatsapp telling their band friends how bored they were. think about this... the high school bands in texas are only allowed to rehearse for 8 hours per WEEK. that means that during a 12-week fall season, they rehearse the equivalent of about 10-12 full drum corps days. these bands achieve things that even lower scoring corps can't even dream of. it's a different universe.

I have always felt the 2004 show had some unfinished business. SCV just ran into two power house shows that summer...there will be a lot of expectations with this show and the momentum coming off of last year! Holy crap do I hope they pull this off!!!

This show means so much to me! The last drum corps event My late mother got to see was the quarter finals show at the theater. She loved SCV the best that year! It will be 10 years since my mom passed away shortly after finals are done. It is also my all time favorite symphony! I waited all my life for them to play this and now I get to see it again!!!!

Looks like I'll have to visit the Fan Network for 2004

That makes me REALLY AULD, because they are repeating shows from two decades after I aged out with them.

I hope its as good as ten years ago!

Do Merriam-Webster, Oxford, Cambridge, et al, define "drum corps" as a sport? I'm having trouble even locating a definition in any of the "authoritative cultural sources," either online or in hard copy texts. The only definition I've found for "drum corps" was on a site called dictionary.com. It's not as prestigious in name as those others, but at least it had SOME kind of definition for "drum corps." drum corps -noun a band, especially a marching band, of drum players usually under the direction of a drum major. Origin: 1860–65, Americanism I'll be the first to admit, dictionary.com is not something I would immediately run to in order to find the definition of a word, because it DOES lack that authoritative nature of the other sources you mention. And like anyone else, I laughed at their definition of drum corps because it so clearly does not fit in my mind as anything resembling what I've come to know about the activity. But after that laughter subsided, I had to ask...is anything that definition states untrue? It may have left many things out, but it hasn't really made any false statements. That's kind of the problem with running to the dictionary to solve these types of quandaries. You're so busy telling everyone the definition of sport, and band, and corps, and drum, and art, but certainly you have to realize that what truly matters here is the definition of DRUM CORPS. And you have yet to really define that term for anyone, at least by utilizing those great authoritative cultural sources we all hold in such high esteem. And for one simple reason. Those sources don't even (so far as I know) actually define drum corps. But I think the larger point to be made here is that when it comes to the extrapolation of "truths" by (as you say) placing certain defined words in proper English syntax and language context, is that all you're proving is that you "consider" drum corps to be a sport. Just like I "consider" drum corps not to be a sport. Neither one of those statements is necessarily true, but considering the lack of those sources actually defining those terms for us the way we want them to, all we have left is to extrapolate their meaning in some other way, even if that sometimes means venturing outside the authoritative cultural texts of our time. In other words, whether those extrapolations are true or not becomes a matter of personal interpretation. That's what I've done and that's what you've done, only I'm willing to admit it and you're not. For example, you've cited the highly competitive nature of drum corps as one of the reasons you think it's a sport. But not all drum corps compete. (The same could be said for marching bands, which you've also gone on record now as being a sport.) So do you believe a dictionary would even bother getting into the competitive aspect of the activity at all in their definition? Or would they just define what the group itself IS and not so much what it DOES (or can sometimes do)? I would imagine that no dictionary when defining something like drum corps or marching band would bother getting into matters such as the demographic make-up of membership, specific individual instrumentation, the seasonal nature of when groups tend to compete, or even that there is a competitive aspect to the activity to begin with. As silly as the dictionary.com definition of drum corps is, that's the kind of definition I would expect to see in ANY authoritative cultural source. It purposefully leaves specific things out in order to encapsulate the more broad-based essence of what something is, and it doesn't always take into consideration things the culture more or less agrees upon which lie outside of their authoritative scope. That makes it a terrific resource, as we all know, but it doesn't make it the end-all be-all. I have one final thing I'll say on the subject and then I'll leave it to you to tell me how wrong I am by citing even more definitions of other terms without actually referencing any authoritative cultural definition of the one term that matters here, that being "drum corps." Many people here have gone back and forth now for a few pages trying to define drum corps in a variety of ways. There have been entire threads dedicated to this in the past as well, making up thousands upon thousands of words and thoughts and ideas. I think that's a good thing because I like drum corps and I like language. But one thing I'm reasonably certain of is that no matter how we see or define ourselves, or how we WANT to see or define ourselves, whether we "consider" drum corps to be a sport or not, the folks outside our little bubble of drum corps awesomeness will never really accept it as a sport. You know those folks. The culture. They've already spoken on the matter. And they didn't require any authoritative sources to tell them so. Enjoy arguing with yourself. I'm going to eat some cookies. Maybe we all should.

Meanwhile, back at Post 199 (where the latest photo was taken): This drummer is very well-known in the NYC metropolitan area from the small parade and standstill corps he started in, to his days in the Yankee Tunesmiths ancients as well as the Colonials (formerly of Bethpage) and also the New York Ancients. He played a season or two with Sky, was in the Sky Alumni Corps, and as you can see in the photo, he is now going to try his hand with us at the Cabs Alumni. He is a cardiologist by profession, and when a member of the Kilties collapsed on the field at DCA a few years ago, he bolted onto the field to try to help. Don, you may not know him at all, but around here he is quite well-known for his drumming talent. Just about every drummer in these parts has heard of Javier _ _ _ _ _ _ _. My wife says that she and many other women in these parts could name him in a "heartbeat!"

True, that you don't need to be innovative to win, but I want them to be. I almost don't care if they win or not, so long as they're putting something on the field I've never seen before. I feel like I'll need to go cleanse my soul after typing this, but part of me wonders if I haven't been enjoying BD more and more because they're doing stuff I haven't seen before or in ways that haven't been done before. I may not "get" their show per se, but I can't argue that it's not interesting to me. Narration's been done. Stages have been done. I may end up digging the show come August, but right now I can't shake the feeling that this is going to be "This... They Believe: Presidential Quotes in 4 Parts With Some Stages"

Another suggestion: 2011 Cavies "upside down everything".

For some reason, my computer is not allowing me to respond directly to post. I hit post and multi post but nothing is happening. I'm sure it's my doing. I use my computer for both work and personal use and we recently upgraded the anti-virus protection, so I'm sure it's probably being blocked. However, I would like to reply to a few posts, the first being that of "exitmusic." I think it's a huge overgeneralization to say that kids today would find shows of yesteryear too boring to march to, and that their high school programs do a better job. It wasn't as easy as it looked back in the day and some of the classic shows will stand the test of time. Also, boring is a subjective term at best. Yes in forty years of following drum corps I have seen snooze-fest performances, but not a snooze-fest competition, and when I yawn, I'm usually in the minority. Also, when it comes to high school programs, yes they have improved, but the very best and even very good are only a fraction of the programs nationwide and school music programs are often just a budget cut away from extinction and in most cases, if the school slices the budget, the public does not raise the funds. Yes it happens, but it's rare. I would venture that most music programs, even the best, have to work twice as hard for half the respect of other school programs. Another poster mentioned that high school programs have replaced drum corps. Maybe, but I'm not sure there is a correlation between improved music programs and fewer drum corps. The Northeast, especially Massachusetts and New Jersey, along with pockets in the Midwest, were the hotbed of drum cops activity but the best high school bands seem to hail from areas of the country that did not have drum corps and interestingly, the kids in many of the best programs fill the spots in most drum corps that are again, housed in areas that in general do not have the best bands. Personally I believe the variety of activities open to kids today accounts for the demise of many drum corps. Growing up there were limited sports activities for boys: football, basketball, hockey, and baseball. Girls could be cheerleaders, take dance, or play softball, maybe. Yes there was scouting, but most of the guys in my Boy Scout troop were also athletes. Today my hometown supports drama programs, a variety of sports including soccer, rugby, and lacrosse, two schools for the arts with waiting lists. The most popular non athletic activity in the town is hip-hop dancing. Times have changed not just in regard to shows and styles but also what is offered to kids.

All Corvettes are Chevrolets; however, all Chevrolets are not Corvettes. That is not dumb, that is not spin, but fact based on commonly agreed to authoritative definitions of the words Corvette and Chevrolet. And by utilizing commonly accepted authoritative sources to define the words ‘sport’, ‘band’, ‘drum’, corps’, ‘marching’, and 'art', and placing those words in proper English syntax and language context, the following holds true: All drum corps activities are arts activities, but not all arts activities are drum corps activities; all drum corps activities are sports activities, but all sports activities are not drum corps activities, and all drum corps are marching bands, but not all marching bands are drum corps. Unless, of course, you want to be obtuse and disregard this by using a perception is reality narcissistic type phrase like, “No matter; I consider…”

Even though members have changed, I will admit that I still spend at least a day or 2 every season with the corps that I marched with in the 70's while they are passing though our city. I still get excited as I watch the buses pull up and as I watch them run to the last set to clean the drill and see the improvements as they practice in the burning sun throughout the day. Is this what I thought drum corps would be like in the 2000"s?.... probably not, but I get to know a few of the members every year and DO know that they are getting out of corps exactly what I got out of corps 35 plus years ago.

Oh boy, June can't come quick enough. I think by now even Noah Webster in the Great Beyond is looking down upon us with amusement on our use of his dictionary to try and determine who and what in Hades we are now.

To be more correct, we ensure the most important show of the season, as well as one of DCI's primary moneymakers AND all of the other large Regional shows DCI produces that are also indoors, doesn't get canceled. If 2012 Finals would've been canceled, that would've been catastrophic. Even in CA one of the largest marching band circuit Championships had to be canceled because of rain, disappointing a ton of students, parents, fans, and school staff members. I was there in 1993 for that rain, and it is a small miracle that things didn't get worse; hell, it was a miracle Finals HAVEN'T been rained out before moving indoors! Before 2012 I was with you; but after seeing the benefits of being indoors, I think there's no question that sacrificing sound for insuring Finals won't be canceled is more than adequate. Oh, and of course there is the whole safety thing. Weren't there fatalities in Indy in 2012 at another, outdoor venue that had major problems with the rain? While DCI fans were inside Oil Can marveling at the sound of rain on the roof, people at another entertainment venue were literally dying because of the weather. That Glassmen video posted here is kind of funny, and a hype, and any of use who marched a season or two likely has a similar story to tell. However, the dark side of that story is the potential for a member to seriously hurt themselves while moving at 200 bpm in torrential rain. Or a fan slipping on stadium steps and breaking a bone. It's my understanding that even in 2012 with huge rain corps could warm-up indoors as well as perform indoors. That is INCREDIBLE, and that is completely worth whatever sound deficiencies are inherent with domes. I'm with you that outdoors sounds a LOT better than indoors, but to trivialize the benefits as "yeah we get AC!" is a disservice.

Going to DOP for the first time since I marched it in '75, I can't wait to see the Kenton/Ellis show! This will be fun!

My vote goes to the Boston Crusaders for the most improved Corps during the course of the 2013 summer season. They finished 6th out of 6 Corps on June 22nd ( behind Spirit, and more than a couple of points behind Cavaliers ) and were ranked 14th the first week on DCP Rankings. They trailed Cavs, Madison, BK, for much of the season. But they wound up 8th, just a mere tenth behind the Cavaliers at Finals for 7th. They really came on strong to finish their season well and breaking into the 90's. As for the most improved Corps year over end ( 2013 from 2012 ), that honor seems to go to The Troopers, imo. In an age when its difficult to move up more than 2 placement positions from one year to the next, The Troopers went from 18th in 2013 to 13th in 2012, and came within less than 2 tenths of shocking the Blue Stars in the Semi's and edging them for that coveted Finalist spot. Their Semi's performance was " on ", and almost became the shocker of Championship week, imo.

As someone who thinks he spends more time than most thinking about drum corps (because it's my job to think about it), I sometimes suspect that some things are way over-thought.

Blue Devils do well at visual, but their work is not as impressive as 'drill.' The last time they got a big reaction purely because of a drill move was.....1989?

Gaines writes to the grid. Rosander writes to a continuum. That means Gaines' drill is much easier to clean, all other things being equal. So, for Rosander to win, he'd need a more-talented drum corps, lol.

From the Bayonne Brisgemen History page... I was only 11 when I saw this show live with my dad, and I thought it was the coolest drum corps show I'd ever seen. I have to believe they would've taken the whole enchilada, were it not for the controversy.

I know I might be a little late to the discussion but I have heard a lot of wrong assumptions about the brass at SCV. And I'm sorry if this is redundant as I did not make it through the whole thread. This was the 1st year of current caption-head Dave Clement (sp?). And this is response to the brass has been bad for awhile. In 2009 under Andre Feagin, they came in 3rd in brass and were quite good. OK, so here you go with the brass staff and arranger history post Gail Royer to the best of my knowledge. Really not sure about 1993 94 and 95....staff was some Blue Devil brass alumni and I am not sure of the arranger 96-2002.....brass caption head was Dean Westman......the arranger was Gordon Henderson from 96-99 and switched to Dean from 2000-2002 2003............ I think was Bill Watson...regardless, it was a lot of the same staff that had worked with Dean and Gordon. Not sure of arranger but might have been Key's first year 04....brass caption head...Gino Cipriani, Key Poulan arranger from this point to the present 05....caption head...Gordon Henderson 06, 07....caption head...Nick Williams 08....caption head....Bob Chreste 09, 10.....caption head.....Andre Feagin 11......Dave Clement So, they have had a lot of different caption heads and approaches over the last 10 years. Since 2003 they have had 7 different brass caption heads and 7 different approaches. I know that the organization does not want this and really wants to find someone that can stick around. We'll see if they stick with their current caption head. In my opinion, the problem is probably more the "revolving door" than the quality of instruction.

My point exactly (the point that was attacked by SCV_Chuck). Philharmonic orchestras, or any musical group that performs on the stage - it's an activity where competition (that is...COMPETITION BETWEEN MUSICAL GROUPS THAT ARE JUDGED ON A POINT SYSTEM THAT LEADS TO AN ULTIMATE WINNER) does not exist. The performers participate because they love music and love to perform, they get paid to do it, people pay to watch them perform, and they even travel the world performing (exhibitions, if you will). So here's the question - - IS THE DRUM CORPS ACTIVITY RELIANT ON THE COMPETITION ASPECT TO REMAIN ALIVE? And the question for you the reader - - IF IT WERE AN ACTIVITY LIKE OTHER "EXHIBITION GROUPS", WOULD YOU ENJOY IT AS MUCH? Would one sit at the most amazingly performed drum corps show going "This is boring...there's no one here to compete against them!"? Maybe a more interesting question would be that if Drum Corps were to become so popular with the world that it became an activity that made profit, and performers were paid like professional musicians in the working world - would COMPETITION STILL BE NECESSARY? I apologize if I'm getting off topic on the subject of this thread - but it's obviously evolved into other issues. And again - - DISCLAIMER: I'm not taking sides. I think the educational aspect and competitive aspect of the activity are both important. And...um...VANGUARD! (to keep with the thread)

Win.

Reading these posts about GR’s concern reminds me of the on-camera interview he conducted for DCI one year. I’m not sure of the year; all I remember was that he was seated at a desk, and he was asked about his role was a director. His answer went something like, “Well, I make sure that the kids are well fed, stay healthy, make sure they get enough sleep…” then he looked straight at the camera and said, “Don’t I sound just like a concerned parent?” That’s like beyond the grave for me; he had lots of kids…128 each year…

As the OP asked about people hearing from them again I know Mark the snare drummer although have not spoken to him for a number of years. He went on to be a very sucessful percussion arranger and instructor here in the UK and was in charge of the 1990 and 91 DCUK champion drum line. He later went on to be a sucessful judge for DCUK (I think he was even the caption head of the percussion judges) and was involved with teaching and marching tenors for the Dagenham Crusaders Alumni Corps this year. I've never spoken to him about the SCV incident (I knew him afterwards and was quietly told not to mention it for obvious reasons) so can't comment on that. Not condoning his actions at all BTW just to make that clear! Kevin W as far as I know has not been involved in drum corps ever since but I don't know him at all so can't be certain. As far as I am aware I don't think there were any (major at least) repercusions this end for their actions.

I remember being asked if I wanted to march in 1977 at 23. Could it have been an opportunity to reclaim the age-out year I didn't march? Maybe. Did I march? Absolutely NOT! Garry in Vegas

And.....no offense.... you shouldn't have beaten them!!!!

Yep, Charlie Poole was our instructor then for the drum line. Also Paul Rennick marched 84-86 (with me). Paul, a class act. I enjoyed marching with him, such a nice guy. I saw him a few years ago getting off the bus of Phantom Regiment and he commented to me "Not like when we marched uh?" :) Referring to the buses. Anyway, if you want to hear a judges tape of the 84 show drum solo, this judge had been a hard sell all the summer until that show there is one up on our website. And fyi, that drum line was full of class act guys...they were all incredible....personally and playing wise. For some reason the url link isn't working for me? Enjoy!

Yes he was. In interviews, he downplays his part in the line's success, but come on. This may be the greatest battery of the DCI era, and that's no accident. Charley Poole is a god among insects. This line was Finals-ready when I saw them in Naperville, Illinois. In June. As hard as I'm sure they worked, I've never seen or heard a line that made it look or sound so easy, with a ridiculously hard book to boot. Maybe the most fun drum show to listen to.