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It's possible today's judges feel the older judging systems were off the mark. I doubt many feel the actual judges were bad or that they didn't get it. Judges from the 1970s did not deal with electronics, amps, singing, the more casual use of props, and the modern design and integration of guard into the total show. The judging system was setup to penalize mistakes more so than to reward great design. It was ultimately about who marched and played the best, with some GE thrown in for good measure. The Blue Devils and SCV were masters of this period, with Madison giving us a perfect show in 1975. The 80s saw a shift to the Build-Up system (1984 I think). Judges from this era -- 1984 through the 1990s or so -- were asked to look for artistry is design, demand and exposure to error, and the GE caption began to take on more importance. Design trumped performance providing the corps with the better design could clean enough to be in the ballpark of the corps that performed the best. The Garfield Cadets were the classic example of a corps built to take advantage of this style. From 1983 to 1998 they won 7 titles with smart design, excellence performance (even if not the best in some areas), plenty of demand, and great integration of all show elements. The main differences I see today compared to the 70s, 80, and 90s are as follows: You need to CLEAN. Effect is better than demand. How difficult does something really need to be? Tough question. There is a fine line. But I believe today's judges are looking for a cross between good demand with excellent effect qualities. What is considered demand? Simply marching blazing fast traditional drill and playing a killer music book are no longer the only things judges consider to be demanding. Body movement, dance, jazz running, guard integration, artistic performance qualities, and other elements have been tossed in. Hence the reason some are saying "variety" is the new king. They are right. I think judges today have great respect for their predecessors, but today's judges clearly have different criteria to consider.

A person writes a post in an informal blog about classical music; within that post are references to a defunct bankrupt company which published opinionated lists of LP recordings and the possibility that modern critics would disagree with archaic critics concerning those lists; then that post is extrapolated here on DCP to be equivocated to DCI Judges. Yep; that is what we call a typical day on DCP!!!!

Using critics as a reference or example is not helpful nor relevant in this discussion. Music critics are not judges. They critique on the work as a whole and rarely judge the performers unless the performance was really bad. Of course drum corps judges of today have opinions about BITD performances and shows, but I doubt that they criticise the previous judges for doing what they did.

And Avon lost (by two-tenths) to Carmel at today's event in Dayton.

She’s marches color guard in Reagan. (My old high school band wasn’t even in the same universe.)

Ha! I have aunts and uncles who live in or near Belpre... Marietta used to be a powerhouse group.

I've been watching the BOA regionals on FloMarching as well. Wow, those Texas bands are a step above the rest of the regions. There are some very mature designs from so many of the groups there. Texas may have more quality bands than Indiana these days! One wonders how the decrease in high school football participation will influence marching music, especially in these marching band hotbeds.

Beyond the experience,training, credentials, with judging " dance " routines in DCI... we have the added dilemna on the qualifications, credentials, experience, etc on judging " Voice "... and/ or Voice Ensembles, ie " Choirs ".... or the degrees, training, etc in " Engineering " that judges might increasingly need to possess now in order to effectively judge shows that now are so heavily imbued with electronic manipulations of the sounds coming from either real. live musicians/ singers and / or artifically created electronically produced musical passages and/ or singing voices. Its getting hard to judge these days imo... as how does one score a real voice( s) in competitiion ( with its potential human flaws ) vs an engineered created faux voice that is guaranteed to be perfectly" sung" at each performance ? or adding elecrtonic wizardry to augment and change the brass and/ or percussion sounds in competition vs. real, live, brass and/ or. percussion playing without such engineering manipulations ? And 50 other things that make modern judging so difficult an undertaking now, imo

Thanks.. can't wait to see the book...

True. And it likewise should be pointed out that some current DCI judges that are judging today have a bit less qualifications/ "credentials" than many of the BITD DCI judges did back then too. That said, DCI throughout the years, on the whole, has had well qualified judges to judge these performers/ shows in competition, imo.

Yes. But it works both ways too. There are former long time DCI judges, long time staffers/ show designers in Corps that are no longer involved in the activity that believe that too many of today's judges/ staffers/ show designers are " badly off the mark " now too. It happens sometimes in sports too. There are lots of former HOF basketball players, HOF Basketball Coaches that are on record stating they would never sit thru a current NBA Basketball game anymore. Its true in lots of other sports too.

Huh. I saw Belpre's marching band perform just a week ago at Marietta.

Maybe because not everyone likes the new style. Maybe because the Cavaliers aren't above criticism. For what it's worth, I agree that this year's Cavaliers show was indeed a "visual vomit fest".

Most of my likings of shows come from the music, and so much of the early to mid 2000’s Cavies shows don’t really do it for me. With that said, my favorites include 1995 - a classic. I wish they had a better hornline for it, but great show regardless 2008 - musically so cool, loved the exploration they did with unique percussion instruments 2013 - I love the music book for this. It was another weak hornline from them but doesn’t matter to me 2014 - Probably my all time favorite show from the Cavies. No narration, minimal electronics, and just a pure show that put equal emphasis on music and visual rather than skewing one way. 2017 - just pure fun. If this is the future of the Cavies, I can’t wait to see more of it

Just caught their show on the Flo. They looked great.

Yea, that's my problem with the sheets. Nobody really masters multiple things in a season. They do things pretty well, but I wouldn't say master them. The thing is in the implementation of doing multiple things, there are only so many things that end up being done by all the corps. The evidence of those things are on display during the season, and what is happening is that the corps end up all doing the same multiple things, but in different combinations. ...and that's what gets called variety. So in effect, from what I see, corps B DOES have to do so many of the things Corps A does because those are the unspoken compulsories du jour. I just believe that a "one-trick" pony corps who has truly mastered what they do should be able to win. It's not like any corps is going to try and just stand around the whole show and call that their trick. ...but I'm still here, so I'm obviously getting something out of the entertainment of all these corps. I do think it could be even more exciting overall.

I've spent most of the day toggling between today's 4 regional BOA marching band competitions on FloMarching. I live in Tennessee so it was enlightening to check out a bunch of Texas bands. WOW! Big and deep and very mature performances by the handful that I watched. Only similar performance I saw at the other 4 competitions was Avon HS. I lived in TX as a child and music in the schools was typically as important as sports, even in small towns. What is your daughter's school and what does she play?

I agree with you it was not their best, but I sat near a group of teenagers at finals who went wild wth the dance move they did "Guess I Got My Swagger Back." I thought "No you haven't" but those kids thought "You never lost it." I figured it may be generational.

1. Cavalier Anthems 1990 is my favorite, especially "All Things Bright and Beautiful." 2. Frameworks 2002 3. 79/80 Loved "Santa Esmeralda" 4. Propaganda 2016--just a lot of fun 5. The Planets1995

We just keep building them bigger here in Tejas. (Bonds here, bonds there, bonds everywhere...) It’ll be some time before the Friday night lights start dimming here. And on the band side of things, they just keep getting better and better. I’m blown away by my daughter’s band this year.(I’m in the parking lot waiting to pick her up now— the semi trailer equipment truck is pulling in just now...)

Well, now you've crossed the line. You, sir, are the one who has been full of it all along. Period. I'm going to dissect everything. At first I thought you were someone wanting to reach out. I've concluded you were looking for folks who just want to sit and shout at the rain for making them wet. That ain't the way it rolls here. People here do what they can to keep this activity alive instead of grouse that it's not exactly the way they'd like it to be. Corps of every decade have been "so real". Define what you mean. Be specific. Can you do it? Maybe I can. Do you mean provide a great 'experience' for their members? Do you mean to provide chances to perform for enthusiastic audiences? Do you, heaven forbid, mean that learning and personal growth takes place on multiple levels for the membership? If so, Corps post 1972 are "real". Quite, quite real. I've also been offended by your rotten and nasty attitude towards any of us who participated in the activity that ended up getting Music Education degrees. Heavily offended and totally insulted. Has it occurred to your thick skull that maybe my experiences with the Westshoremen were a heavy influence on me to become a Music Educator? Then again-- according to your thinking, I never marched in a "real corps" since I was with a corps that had mallet percussion, tympani and later on- much later on I used a 2 valve bugle. The real legacy of the corps I marched with wasn't the 1996 Championship. It's the fact many of us went on and taught local High School bands and passed on our knowledge and enabled them to be insanely successful. Many of us also went on and became adjudicators, again, passing on our knowledge to others and helping to keep the marching activity alive and vibrant. I was an "everyday kid" in my era. How dare you assume otherwise. I was fortunate to have grown up with very supportive parents who made sure I got away from some difficult and painful family situations by traveling with Westshore and doing somehting I loved and believed I was good at. A place where I could compete against any DCA corps extant at the time and have a shot at beating them- and over the six years I was there- we did just that. I never received any college credit during my six seasons for my performing with Westshore. No one did. And, may I ask, what would have been so wrong with that!? Explain, if you can why that would be so bad. I dare you to try. You're gonna come up empty. I've been on record here as saying I felt my experiences from a fantastic instructional staff should ###### well have been worth at least 6 credits a season in terms of Phys Ed, Music Performance, and Music Theory given I did less and learned less in most of my college performance courses in terms of work and preparation for those earned credits. So, please explain what that would be a negative. Hmm? Do it! I know you can't. It strikes me you have some kind of serious envy for any of us lucky enough to attend college. I humped hard to get scholarships to afford it and take financial burden off my parents. I happened to have learned a lot about working pretty hard in corps and it gave me an edge over those who did not. Wow! You shouldn't have the jealousy you do towards anyone with college credits. Society's evolved, too. One needs post- high school education of some sort today unless they want to flip burgers, toss boxes, or do the checkout at Wal-Mart. Whether you like it or not, Corps is not dead, and if you can get it through your thick skull, and I unfortunately doubt you can- it evolved to survive serious threats to its existence as a whole. Otherwise, it would be nothing more than some amusing curiosity in a few towns that would come out and stumble around for Christmas and Memorial Day, sound awful, and be embarrassing next to the local High School Band. Finally: Let me tell you, pal, I played my freakin' heart out every time I went on the field with the Westshoremen or on stage with the Westshoremen Alumni. I compete. Hard. There are those who know me here that will back that statement. I find it incredibly offensive you would think otherwise about me, or frankly, ANY individual marching in DCA or DCI right now- or in your perspective, since 1972. You can tell me I can't play worth a wick, I can handle that. I'll practice harder and prove you wrong. You might tell me I can't march for s##t- and you might be right on that, I heard that a lot as a kid. I got better at it. But don't ever dare insinuate that I didn't go out there and throw down hard every freakin' time I set foot on a field for a number. With your lame attitude, I could still prolly compete against you on any field, any time. Name your poison in terms of a low brass bugle- G-D, Piston-Slide, Piston-Rotor, and I'll lick you by 15 points with a week of practice on my lunch break sitting on the rear bumper of my VW working it out. And it won't be because I have a degree and you don't. I have way more moxie, period.

Fighting words! haha ...and a jab at Sacktig's design? Most likely parroting the current line of what to say in this situation. Crown's not winning visual wasn't because the design of the visual was bad or something as much as BD was doing what is popular at the moment, which they consistently seem to do and always get rewarded for by the judges. Variety is king. That's what will get rewarded the most, all other things being equal.

Haven't been on here for a long time. Would just like to say that I am hoping and praying that the alumni drum corps activity is alive for as long as possible. There are a lot of wonderful and talented individuals still involved in the activity and that is a beautiful thing. Drum corps provides a great outlet for people to excape from the realities that each of us face on a daily basis. Wishing everyone much continued success and happiness in all future drum corps activities and all future endeavors in life! Love...JJ/Muchachos/Bridgemen/Bush/Cabs/Reilly/Director-Jordan Thomas Orchestra...Vero Beach, Florida