BigW

Thom is one of the people I've never heard a bad thing about. He's not only a top end educator, but is also a real person and treats people with kindness. My guess is Tom Aungst and Bill Pease took that with them when they went on and did what they did and now do after working under Thom at Cadets. They're both the same way.

Well, I guess the Trilateralists and the Bildabergers must be picking the panels, huh?

Loaded question- what happens when the keyboards are simulating Low Brass (a common thing in DCI right now) and they go out of balance?? My guess is the ensemble music judge can speak up. What if they break up or get buzzy or staticy?? is that a performance issue? Another loaded question...What if the elecrtronic instrument is a digital xylophone or percussion instrument/used as a percussive timbre? Yet another question: what if a sampled sound effect causes balance problems with the music ensemble? Can the ensemble music judge discuss it since it disturbs the ovaerll balance of the ensemble/total sound projected to the box, or should they ignore it? Please understand something. I have no idea what the DCI adjudicators are clinced to do or not to do. When there are serious questions about scoring or evaluating, the judge in any circuit will (at least SHOULD) refer to the sheet/placemat and read it carefully to remind them of priorities and what they can and should do or not do. IIRC, those sheets are fairly nebulous about how to handle electronics. You could be correct. I could be more correct, or the correct answer is in a gray area between us. I don't know. I could care less who is right or wrong- but I'd like to know a proper and definite answer.

Based on some of the previous comments and from what I saw in the recaps- What if they had a more "sympathetic panel" to meet your standards? BD was still 9-0 vs Crown. I have a feeling the most desireable combination for you would narrow the gap by at most .3 to .5. Perhaps the more sympathetic panel that you desired judged an earlier round. And guess what- BD still won every round. Had Crown won one of the preliminary rounds, your conspiracy theory may have carried some weight, and the operative words are "may", and "some".

The same guy I think it is? Part of the problem might be that electronics are danced around on the sheets, IIRC, Jeff. They seem to be avoided there. Another issue. Who gets to jump in and give the corps the pimp hand when it's poor and in what captions? Accusations could fly that "YOU'RE JUDGING OUT OF CAPTION!!!!!" You know the game. You know many people like to stick the index finger out like a pistol and yell that when they can. Yet another issue. You may have the argument "Oh, come on, Jeff, You've dumped us over something electronic involving one person or a very few people running it and it's such a teeny-tiny facet of out most wonderful program and you penalized the whole corps of kind, sweet, deserving, hard working young people! It's just one teeny tiny eensy beensy failure! Why take it out on us!? You got something against us!?" Have I sat in on too many critiques on both sides of the table or not? I think that might be why people are avoiding it, Jeff. They want to avoid the acrimony after the contest over it. It may not be worth it to them. Just kinda thinkin' here about it is all.

I will be at the show. I'll be at the Glider afterwards, as per my usual thing. As late as it will be, drinking anything then driving home=bad idea. A good meal and usually great conversations with the corps people there to finish off the day, perfect.

Great show conceptually, but some of the drill design/tranitions looked really cluttered and mob-sceneish. It really hurt the show and kept them down. The horn book was quite good!

If by getting it right you mean making people happy and giving them something they'll remember for many years that they saw and enjoyed, yes. It depends on ones philosophy. Also, "vague idea of a show" regarding who I think you wish to denigrate is wildly inaccurate. The show was exactly what it was intended to be, in terms of the art form and aesthetic they pursued as the show goal and objectivbes, nothing was vague. The objective was as crystal clear as Surf's in terms of what they were going for in that regard. If it were as vague as you claim, it would not have done as well as it did in Effect. Nowhere near as well.

Fran, BITD when we were competing against one anoher, that show has always had a great cachet to it as a show that people want to do WELL at. I'm proud to say we got a win there in 82, and you guys got one back at us the next year. One of the real old school shows left. Predictions? See some real score movement from several excellent open corps at Scranton since they were rained out from getting a number last week. And what Jeff will say.

From what I know, BD was and is big on rehearsal pacing, everything culminating at the rehearasl's end to one full run through to sum up and cap off what had been learned for the day, and also as a refresher for perhaps things that had NOT been worked on for that day to keep them alive in everyone's head. Also do bop runs to make sure if there were changes that the continuity issues also sunk in within the context of those changes. They also had Mars (their rehearsal site) wired with a predeccessor to Dr. Beat YEARS before that caught on with everyone. They've made a business out of sharing their knowledge now with System Blue, which I think is a wise thing and good thing. The problem I see out there is while you may understand System Blue and be cliniced by it, APPLYING it within the context of your organization is the REAL trick. I've only seen one local/area HS band rehearse that came close to that level of having it all together. Jeff knows who I mean. Many people think they can just copy something verbatim like that and then they wonder why they're not winning all the time. It's because of the dynamic nature of people and personalities being so different, talent levels being different, the human aspects. Just my two cents. From what everyone says out there, BD works smart and hard, emphasis on the smart end of things. Cadets works with the emphasis on working hard, maybe not as smart, they tend to have the belief their superior work ethic will overcome any and all obstacles, Cavies before this year, a blend of both ends. Any system in place the Cavies have wouldn't have saved them from that train wreck of a program their new staff inflicted upon that corps. I have no idea where Crown fits in to the spectrum. With Klesch there, my guess is he's more the hard worker type given his background, his Brass specialists, may be more the work smarter type. At least I still have hair on my head as compared to Eddie Otto and Mike Klesch. God has a sense of very good humor about such things. I need some pie. Be back later. Still full from Fogo 24 hours later, man but would just like a piece of pie...

Gah, double post somehow, my apologies.

Being a favorite to win, yes, that's a lot more difficult of a circumstance. Making finals, no, not if they're good enough. It's possible that they're the best corps out there- There are no absolutes, but the odds would be pretty long of that. If they were, they get into finals, maybe something happens there. Really their goal is to make finals and get placed correctly within 1-2 places of where they "could or should" be, and then let the Finals Panel figure out the mess from there. The only real solution would be to clinic West Coast or enough DCI people who could theoretically be out there to do a show that would meet the bylaws. The question is expenses, or whether you'd make the clinic a web conference online and whhether that would be acceptable to the DCA membership. If enough people would be willing to work from all ends to acomodate, I think some workable solution could be found, but there'd have to be some degree of give and take from the sounds of things from all three of four ends of the matter.

Going on first is not necessarily bad for Prelims. The panel's got their experience from seeing whom they have seen this season, and they should easily be able to get the corps in the right rating area to start things off. Then, it becomes an issue of lining everyone else up appropriately. They know the situaton, they'll keep it in mind and get the Gades where they should be.

Great idea for your corps to do this- good luck with the endeavour. Just make sure all the visa/passport issues are all understood and clear.

You know, if they did a "Mothers of Invention" show, yeah we'd be on the sidelines jaggin' our heads going "Yeah... cool... yeah..." and still I think most of the crowd would be cryin'. I'm beginning to think as a composer Zappa might be one of the top 10 greatest American composers. Short List Ellington, Gershwin, Copland, Maybe John Williams, Bernstein, He might be in there somewhere. And Fran- THAT is the crux of things. I sat and talked to Cameron after he came back from tour with BD in '81. He explained things to me in really good detail. What they call "System Blue" now was in place, it's just that it didn't have a name for it, and it was well reasoned and thought out from an Educational Methods Level then, and was refined, added to and improved over the last 30 years. They know how to rehearse, grounded and understood fundamentals, they know what they want for an end result and how to get it without killing the kids- it's formidable. As for 1930, yeah it had the feeling more of a 1930 Fred Astaire movie production and aesthetic than any reality. It didn't grab me, either, nice, but- eh. Reminds me of my Uncle Willard. I talked to him about Riding the rails in the period. He told me Rather than be poor and without work and staying in Pittsburgh, he figured he might still have little money, no job, but he could travel and see the US by riding the rails. He'd pick up jobs at CCC camps, and move on, and saw a lot, did a lot. A VERY cool dude whom I know our family were all very fond of. Heck, he even conned my Grandpap- his Brother-in-Law into riding in a motorcycle sidecar out to Chicago for the World's Fair in period. MY Grandpap in a sidecar!? He was one special guy to be able to pull THAT off. Crown has one huge piece of the puzzle. They need three more. Visual package a bit spicier and a guard that's not so bland. And, a percussion section that can at worst finish second to BD by .2 or less in a worst case scenario. Fogo blew my everlovin' mind. Steak better than any steak I have ever had, Lamb even better... Chicken that tasted as GOOD as the Steak and Lamb...even the dinner rolls were REALLY good! That stuff just comes out on the skewers, oh baby. Want to take everyone there, unsure what they would think, though. I'm STILL full. Maybe not eat Wednesday, man....

BD's show is about Dadaism. Ive said on the DCI forums that I can see why this show has people reacting virulently to it. Not everyone would or should like it. That's part of Dada. Ben, Dadaism is anti-art. it's like BD gave everyone a middle finger and shot the moon at them musically and visually. Here's an example of Classic Dada art: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp) By the way, Duchamp became a main driver of Futurism and heavily influenced Zingali. I know this because I heard Zingali say this to my very ears at a WCU director's Clinic in 1984. But yes, BD did the drum corps equivalent of putting a urinal on its side and telling everyone it was art. For this, I loved them this season. Then again, you guys know I'm always a bit of a soup stirrer and troublemaker. It was not my fave show, I loved Turandot a ton, but I also loved BD for the concept and attempt. Again, not everyone would get it, and I don't expect nor demand them to. What I do expect them to get was this: An unbelieveably fantastic horn line with a sound that debunks the whole "G Bugles are superior and more powerful" crap does not guarantee a win. Dressing up the guard as "Crown Man" and "Carolina Girl" wan't innovative. Seen how many HS bands do Superhero shows the past few years. The show was of high quality and sounds incredible- but it didn't move me in any direction other than, "Wow, their brass ensemble is powerful, clear and pristine as ####!" The Theme was nice feel good eat at Cracker Barrel stuff, which is fine and good, but not really daring or original. Their percussion were 3rd IIRC by a decent gap vs. BD. Crown's guard and visual aesthetic weren't in the same league. It's more than having a big stankin' beauutiful horn line. And here you have ME, a HORN guy who is saying this stuff. It's a repeat reaction by many of the 1996 DCA results for the same reasons. IF Crown can get their percussion up to BD's level AND if they can come up with something still accessible, but less Cracker Barrel feel good and more Fogo de Chao, they CAN beat BD. Speakin' of Fogo de Chao, I'm goin there for dinner tonight in Baltimore after visting the Smithsonian with friends. We plan on hitting the NASM, and the Hirschorn Museum of Modern Art, maybe some other ends of it too. (Yeah I DO like Dadaism/Modern Art that much...) I am SO ready to eat there... Check this stuff out! Unreal!!!!! http://www.fogodechao.com/index.php?id=164

HB makes 11! Get back to me on the message, man! Oreos are good comfort food.

I'd say third place is more than a little love. They did very well and beat some other very fine organizations to earn that placement. My fave show this season, and for many other folks. If they can get the percussion section back on track, they'll be in a better situation to get higher than 3rd. Some people have trouble separating the issues that maybe their favorite program doesn't win. There are usually good reasons, and it's okay to enjoy a non-winner more than the champ if it floats your boat the most. I'm not agonizing over the fact my fave DCI show didn't win. I understand why, it's all good, PR will strive to improve what needs improved for next season.

I agree that innovation for the sake of innovation is a can of worms. It can fail. I have stated this before on other threads years ago. It seems you just don't like the winning show this year, so you'll just hang it up. There were some really fine programs out there. I personally enjoyed 11 of the 12 finalists very much. My guess is that's about the same percentage that you have. It's just the one I detested is different from your thoghts on the matter. And I profile as some old legacy dino stubborn old coot and they had a 92 percent batting average. I'd call that pretty good.

Been having too much fun with the people wailing about BD winning. You guys know me. It was as if BD wrote a show just for ME!

Weaving pieces together has been done before in arrangements. There's a top level HS band in the Harrisburg, PA area that's done that for at least a decade. Granted, Smith's book was utterly brilliant. But the concept's been done before. The Theatre of the Absurd is quite different from Dada. Maybe not obvious, but it is. And they arguably never reached an absurd level in 2008. They ostensibly 'risked' it, and were flat and boring as heck. This time, they embraced the philosophy whoe hof, and a rather controverisl and dangerous philosophy at that. The show was well performed but not as interesting or as obvius as to what they were getting at. It also happened to have faced the Phantom Regiment buzzsaw that deserved to beat it. Crown's show wasn't as inspiring, dramatic or as exciting by far as Spartacus. Great horn line at Crown, yeah- but I'll take Spartacus, gladiatir fights, legionairres, and the dead conductor over Crown-Man and Carolina-Girl any day. And unusually, I'll take Dada over them, too. Seen HS Band color guards dressed up as superheroes. Never seen one attempt Dadaist performance art... Doing contemporary/pop music? Hmm. College bands have done that for decades, playing pop tunes appropo to the times. Sorry. I know it's bubble bursting, but maybe I'm a bit jaded. The freshest show out there was BD. Yes, they used Bird and Bela and B-Flat again, but And maybe some people noticed they may have played it better than the 92 corps....in that context- it worked. Part of Dadaism is to generate controversy, reactions of all types. This show has certainly done just that, hasn't it!? Did Crown leaving me feel more 'commony goodness' inside me? They left me gobstopped by an awesome horn line that I believe has put to bed the notion G horlines are better and more powerful, yes. But did they really, really communicate their theme, aesthetic, and message as well? No. Oh, and the Cascades stuck a couple os sets of tympani across the field from one another a few years ago. They had to ditch it by championships weekend because they'd been dreadfully phasing all show and they were a visual distraction and annoyance in yjeir case. So that wasn't new, either. It's just Crown got it to work, to their credit. The crux of the issue is this: It seems people think innovation is the use of electronic sound envelopes and using some new percussion on the sideline that looks like a tuned mushroom farm, and that might get the judge to check of on 'innovative' on their sheet. Someone took a real risk, really innovated- and managed to pull it off. THat show had a high chance of exploding in their faces, they got the thing to actually work, whether anyone liked it or not.

Everyone likes competitive seasons. It depends on the perspective one takes on that word. If you were a Crossmen or Blue Stars fan it sure was exciting and competitive, or BAC. In DCA, there's a lot at stake involving every position for Open and A Class Finals this season. You have to look beyond the peak of the mountain and you can see competitiveness and some exciting competition taking place in both organizations, maybe just not at the very top for much of recent history. The problem is, it's the responsibility of the corps to make the seasons competitive by creating a product that can win. That's out of our hands, we can only hope for the best in that regard. Auto Racing buffs like to wax poetic about the Can-Am Racing series from the late 60's/early 70's and how awesomely wonderful it was, to the point where guys like me who remember it have several models of those great racing cars sitting next to my computer desk. The greatest drivers from that era competed in it. The prize money was great, everyone went for it. But-- it wasn't called the "Bruce and Denny Show" for nothing. Pretty much two guys from the same team winning everything for 5 out of the 8 years of its existence, and Porsche winning the last two titles before it all fell apart in the first energy crisis. It was only when someone **else** monopolized the fun that everyone balked. Yet, people like to reminisce about how great it was, even though it was pretty much a one-sided deal for the existence of the series. There can still be a lot of fun and exciting things happening regardless if someone monopolizes the winning. It's up to the corps leaderships to decide to put the resources and commitment to taking on BD on even terms like Porsche did in Can-Am- and like Mr. Cook did with Star-- if people want to see a real fight. I think Crown is very close to doing so. Only time will tell. If some other organizations can just tweak aspects of ther corps, they may also be there as well. Just my tuppence.

Spirit had a fairly weak visual package/design by that era's standards. Otherwise a really great corps in period.

Yes. Crown's show wasn't more difficult in many aspects. I would believe the numbers given by the panel bear that out adequately. Again, people forget it's about more than the horns. I have no issue with people that claim their horn book was more challenging. It's when they imply EVERY ASPECT of their show was harder, when it clearly was not according to the panel.