gellio

Absolutely. But, it was championship caliber. I saw this out of Crown in 2006. I felt their overall programming was right up there with the very top corps (ok - maybe not percussion programming). What wasn't on that level was execution. They improved on programming and execution in 2007 and 2008 IMO. Will they improve further in 2009? I hope so, but there are no guarantees. However, 2008 Crown was without a doubt the best 4th place corps ever.

Agreed. Let's not forget Cavaliers in 1997 - two years off their impressive win, and they get 7th. Or, 1998 Phantom. Or, 1989 Scouts. Judges are professional and judge as they should. We can always disagree with placements when corps are close, but there's no conspiracy, there's no rule that says you have to place within the top 3 before you win, and there's not rule that BD, Cavies and Cadets HAVE TO get high scores.

I'm not upset. I don't care what anyone says about the win in 1988. Again, it was a close competition with three great shows. Had we placed 2nd or 3rd, I wouldn't be on here saying we should have won. What 1988 proves is competitive inertia is baloney! We had a good show, talent, and it clicked at the right time. That's it. The fact that we placed in the top 3 before had nothing to do with the win in 1988. Nothing!

This I can agree with. Maybe not the math, but the logic. I've said many times that beating BD, Cavies and Cadets all in the same year is EXTREMELY difficult. Kudos to Phantom for pulling it off this year. It, however, has nothing to do with CI - it's talent and preparation. That's it.

And 36 years doesn't mean a hill of beans, considering that since 1972 (it's really 37 years) we have had 37 championships, and only 5 of those were not won (or tied) by BD, Cavies, Cadets or Santa Clara (1972, 1975, 1988, 1991 and 2008). It has much more to do with these four corps being consistent at the highest level, then this "so-called" CI.

Three reasons: 1. Phantom Regiment was better than Carolina Crown 2. Blue Devils were better than Carolina Crown 3. Cavaliers were better than Carolina Crown

Exactly. I still do, and will for a while, always believe BD, Cadets and Cavies have the best chance of winning. It's statistics. There's only been 9 years in DCI's history were won of these three haven't won, and Vanguard won 5 of those. It has nothing to do with CI. It has to do with the talent and programming of those organizations - getting the best of everything. I would put my money on one of them winning, and I would not put money on any one else winning (were I betting), but I think the whole CI argument is extremely flawed.

What? Again - something's not clicking upstairs in your little head. It *IS* a coincidence that no one has ever won without being in the top 3 previously. How did I contridict myself? You need progress to move up in the ranks. Many corps have done it, and yes, all of them have placed in the top 3 before winning. THAT is coincidence. I never said anything about Crown's achievements being a coincidence. I believe in a post above I sited the reasons why I think Crown is now a championship caliber corps. Hard work and PROGRESS!! Lots of progress!! They may have only placed 4th, but they had a championship caliber product, executed at a championship caliber level. I cannot think of any other 4th place corps in DCI History I can say that about. They had a championship caliber brass line, a championship caliber guard, a championship caliber visual package, a championship caliber musical package, and a darn good drum line. The best 4th place corps EVER, without a doubt, and better than many a 3rd place finishers IMO. Phantom's win doesn't prove CI. They had IMO the overall best show this year, and the members executed in at the highest level. Their past successes, while obviously playing a part in getting them to the level they were at this year, were not the reason the judges gave them the title. And, I disagree - if Crown had been the best corps on the field on finals night, they would be the 2008 World Champion! I have more faith in the judging community, obviously.

Do you ever actually read what you write before you post? The above statement proves that something inside your head isn't properly functioning. It is absolutely absurd that you think a panel of professional judges would deprive the entire Regiment organization of a win in 1989 to appease for some mistake they made the year before. Do you not see how ridiculous such a statement is? Re 1988 Finals: I'd take the word of a qualified panel of judges over your word any day. I will say it sure as hell didn't seem like everyone in that stadium agreed that SCV should have won on finals night in 1988. We had NO CI in 1988. No one, even going in to finals week thought we'd win. No one. Brownie points? Where were the "HUGE brownie" points when we came back from Europe and got 4th at DCM? Where were they when Phantom and Star beat us a handful of times after DCM? Where were they when Garfield beat us the only time we saw them before finals? Where were they when SCV and BD beat us all year up until finals? 1988 is a perfect example of judging done correctly. IMO, there were three championship caliber shows that year, all executed on a championship level. The numbers, when added up, fell in our favor. Sure you can say BD should have won that year. Sure you can say SCV should have won that year. Just like you can make a chase for another corps winning in almost every year, including 1989, 1996 and 2008. Please - think before you type and read your posts before hitting"Add Reply" - you may see how little sense your make.

We can disagree on Crown's design. Competitive Inertia is PROGRESS. Progress in obtaining and retaining highly qualified staff. Progress in retaining members, and improving their abilities. Progress in recruiting new, more highly-talented members. Progress in designing better shows. Progress in executing more difficult shows better. Progress in moving up the competitive ranks. It's PROGRESS. The fact that no one has won who was not previously in the top 3 is COINCIDENCE!!!! I mean, come on, the fact that the OP is using Pioneer to try and back up his weak argument is proof right there. Of course, Pioneer isn't going to win next year. Of course, no one in their right mind would think that. It would be impossible for Pioneer to improve THAT much over one season. Winning finals is tough. Beating BD, Cadets AND Cavies on finals night is tough. They are were they are for many reasons - many which I stated above. Phantom did it this year, and that's great. It has nothing to do with competitive inertia. It has to do with, AGAIN, those things mentioned above. I'm sorry, but 1988 Scouts thwart the whole competitive inertia theory in a single blow. I think we had two members who were in the 1981 corps. Every other vet had only placed 4th at the highest (1985). We were coming off mid-level seasons (1986 and 1987). No one "in their right mind" would have ever thought coming into the 1988 season that we would have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. But, we did. We had talent. We had great staff. We had a well-designed show. We executed that show on a very high level. It had nothing to do with this so-called competitive inertia. The pieces just fell into place. 1989 was extremely different. Right there- you're theories dead. Peace out!

This statement is absurd. You must have no faith in the judging community. Had Crown performed the best Saturday night, they would have won. Same with anyone else in the top 12. Give me one instance where it was blantantly obviously that a corps that should have placed higher was boxed in in a lower placement. You can't.

I have and it's dumb! The 1988 Madison Scouts had no competitive inertia. We were no better off than the 1988 Star of Indiana. The reason corps like Cadets, Cavies and BD are consistently on the top is because of talent (staff and members) and programming. THAT'S IT!!!!! Crown is now on their level from that standpoint. Period! The reason Madison won in 1988 was programming and talent. The reason Star rose is programming and talent. The reason Garfield rose is programming and talent. The reason the Bluecoats rose is programming and talent. Should I go on and on? Your theory is heavily flawed. The 2009 Carolina Crown will start the season in a MUCH better position than the 1988 Madison Scouts, 1990 Cadets, 1994 BD, etc....

You don't have to educate me on anything. I think my argument is spot on. There is NO SUCH THING AS COMPETITIVE INERTIA. The Bluecoats may have made 4th in 2006, but that same show would have finished 7th in 2007 and probably 6th or 7th in 2008. There is no comparision in what was achieved between the 2008 Carolina Crown and the 2006 Bluecoats. PERIOD! It's championship caliber programming and performing vs. top 5 programming and performing. The bottom line is Carolina Crown is now a championship caliber corps. None of the other in and out of the top 5 corps you mentioned EVER were championship caliber corps. Nor would any of those shows place as high as 3rd any other year. Can we have a discussion without throwing insults please?

I've been thinking about this for the past two weeks too. Corps should somehow get credit for demand. The problem is - starting values would be changing day to day as corps shows change - how would a new starting value constantly be re-assigned.

Wow! I LOVED 1998 Blue Devils. It made me what BD to play classical music SOOOO bad! I also loved Phantom 1986

It may be 2009 - it may not be 2009. We will know on finals night 2009. But, the top 5 from last year all have an equal chance to win the title in 2009. Period! There is a reason they are all part of the top 5 and a tier up from 6th place down. The Cadets faltered due to programming in 2008 IMO. Maybe Hoppy's got it through his head that his programming choices don't work. A conventional drum corps show would be most appropriate for the Cadets in 2009.

Definitely. But when you look at what has happened in Ft. Mill, if Crown keeps doing what they are doing, they will no doubt get there. If it's not broke - don't fix it (Crown).

Competitive Inertia is dumb. 1. Bluecoats, Crossmen, Glassmen and Boston have never scored a 96.8. Nor, have they ever even been remotely close to the top spot come finals night. Crown scored a 96.8 - 1.325 down from Phantom finals night. Any other year and Crown would have likely been top 3. What Crown did in 2008 (in terms of design and execution) was far superior to any product ever put out by Bluecoats, Crossmen, Glassmen and Boston. Those four were top 5 corps, not championship caliber corps. 2008 Crown was a championship caliber corps. 2. In 1988 we won the title, after finishing 6th in 1987 and 7th in 1986. The last time Madison was top 3 was 1981. Are you saying we somehow had competitive inertia in 1988 just because we won the title in 1975? If so, that proves how flawed the competitive inertia argument is. 3. In 1994 BD won the title (with a huge score) after placing 4th the year before and never really challenging for the title since 1988. How'd BD have competitive inertia in 1994? 4. The Cadets have risen from 4th and 5th place numerous times to win the title. 5. The Cavies rose from 4th in 1994 to win the title in 1995. 6. Regiment nearly won in 1989 (with a huge score) after placing 6th in 1988 and 10th in 1986. Explain how they had competitive inertia in 1989? The bottom line - Crown is now a championship caliber corps. They have the staff, the talent, the design and the execution. All top tier. Those are the necessary ingredients. I have no doubt that 2008 was the beginning of big things for Crown. Crown will be our next new World Champion.

Crown is my new SCV - my favorite corps outside of the Scouts. I have loved Crown since 2001 (save 2002) and their '08 show was amazing. What a great season. I am really going to be pulling for them to win it all next year, and I believe they will be the next new corps to win a world title. Certainly, this year was a remarkable achievement. No other corps challenged the top guns like they did this year. I believe they are only going to get better.

1984 is definitely one of them. 1989 was not (although everyone from 1st - 12th scored way too high IMO). Blue Devils scored at 95.9 at 4th place, where as Garfield scored a 96.1 for 4th in 1988. The other one has to be 1982, since BD had the highest 1st place score to-date, and that score held up until 1984. I can't think of any other year it could be w/o going back and looking at all the scores.

I'll bite too. Show's I've liked better than 1996: 1984, 1985, 1987, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008. Show's I thought were executed better: 1989, 2005, 2006, and 2008. 1996 was an awesome show musically (execution and design), but was very very weak in terms of visual design IMO. Love to listen to it, don't watch it!

2008! + Better brassline (or at least on par) + Better drumline + Better guard + MUCH MUCH MUCH better visual program + More demand + Overall a much better designed show.

Thank you! That's what I'm saying. I remember the first time I saw the '85 show (at finals housing site) and it blew me away. I can say that for many Vanguard shows, but I'm sorry '06-'08 just didn't do it for me. Great drill/decent music - nothing that really grabbed me. Nothing compared to the old Vanguard. I think Vanguard thinks they have to take a new direction. Not true. You can still move forward and be innovative, while creating that magic, while being entertaining, while playing good classical music. I'm sorry, I am a HUGE classical music lover, but in my opinion modern and contemporary classical music is passionateless. I loved the Canyon, but that's about it. Short Ride is cool too, but still nothing compared to the greats. AND - I doubt the Vanguard organization views a 7th place finish as being good enough. Others have mentioned the problem we see year after year after year with the Vanguard coming out of the gate behind with huge ground to make up. WHY WHY WHY if you have 3 weeks of everydays is your complete show NOT on the field first show? That's unacceptable. Why can't these knuckle-heads (the staff) understand they that puts them at a big disadvantage. Firing JW was the DUMBEST thing this organization has ever done IMO.

SCV definitely came from behind in 1978, eventhough they tied Phantom in Prelims (and really tied if Finals too). They were 4th at DCI Midwest and DCI East, and I believe BD beat them by like 2.5 the week before finals, which was considered "the kiss of death".

Dumb.