BRASSO

more impactful than " 86 years of coincidence" though, was " 86 years of mostly bad baseball ".

Say the following shows went head to head on one night (champions and those scoring closest to the champions since 2002): 2002 Cavaliers 2003 Blue Devils 2004 Cavaliers 2004 Blue Devils 2005 Cadets 2006 Cavaliers 2006 Phantom Regiment 2006 Blue Devils 2007 Blue Devils 2007 Cadets 2008 Phantom Regiment 2008 Blue Devils How much spread would there be from 1-12 ? I HAVE NO IDEA. BUT THE JUDGES HEADS WOULD ALL EXPLODE, I'M SURE OF THAT.

I'm not a Cubs fan and I don't believe in curses. I do believe in both good and bad baseball though. And that good and bad ownership and management puts you where you belong. Same as Drum Corps in this respect.

long time Chicago Cubs baseball fans go to Heaven when they die. They've already been to Hell and back.

By the time we get to Finals Week, we are left with 3, at most 4 Corps ,with a legitimate shot at the Title. If your Corps is not ranked in the top 4 coming into Finals Week, based upon over 35 years of history, you can just about forget about a Title. You have NO shot. So the notion that somehow there are more than 4 Corps in any given year as " Elite " Corps doesn't seem to pass muster. Not if " Elite Status " by definition means a Corps has a shot at the Title that year. Thus, in my definition, there are usually 3, and at most, 4 Corps in " Elite Status " in any given year if the historical timeframe for consideration is as little as " 1 year ".

True enough..... but if " Elite Status " is reduced to " little engines that could ", and those Corps that " deserve a pat on the back " for efforts, etc., then what the heck, lets just assign " Elite Corps Status " to EVERY Corps out there. If this is the case, then the OP's thread question......" Elite Corps..... is there a limit ?" the answer would have to be : " NO " That's because with this definition then they are ALL " Elite Corps " .....similar to the Tampa Bay Rays baseball team becoming defined as an " Elite " MLB professioinal baseball franchise with such a minimal criteria established to attain such " Elite Status ".

well this would be a novel interpretation in " sports" then of " elite status ", ...." anybody capable of winning in a given year" By this definition, the Tampa Bay Rays are an " elite " major league baseball franchise. Afterall, they are the defending American League Baseball Champions and are certainly " capable of repeating ". But are the Tampa Bay Rays considered by most national baseball fans as an " elite " MLB franchise ?.............hmn.....I don't think so.

Exactly... 1-3 great seasons does not make for " Elite Status " in just about any activity or sport We need a wider historical timeframe it seems to me when we talk about " Elites " and a mandatory prerequisite above all else is the answer to the questions....... 1)" Did you win a Title ? and..... 2) "" How many Titles did you win ? " and .........3 ) " what have you done lately if you are still in competition ? " The answers to these questions in my view determine if you are truly an " Elite Corps " or not. Otherwise, a more liberal interpretation for me would be the conventional one used historically which has always been : making the TOP 12 for Finals Night for the DCI Championship competition and the answer to the question... "how many times have you done so ? " If we use the first criteria..... 3 fit the bill it seems to me ( BD, Cadets, Cavs ) in the more liberal 2nd interpretation of " Elite Status " there would be considerably more Corps in " Elite Status " I personally like the first criteria for " Elite Status "...... as it means more, if the criteria is what it should be, and is in most sports which is:........ NUMBER OF TITLES WON.

If the criteria is " all time history " as mentioned here by a poster, then I would have to modify my list of BD, Cadets, Cavs to include as a 4th Junior Corps, the Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights to " Elite Corps " status. For 2 decades they put up an amazing list of accomplishments and multiple national titles, and did so in an era where there were considerably more national competitors than today for them to beat in order for this Corps to attain all those national titles. For a decade there, they were as dominant a Junior Corps as any Junior Corps has been in any given decade in our activity, rarely falling out of the top 2 or three in placements. It was mostly before my time, but we can't just ignore these accomplishments. I never saw Cy Young, Bob Feller, or Satchel Page pitch a baseball, or Babe Ruth or Ted Williams hit a baseball either. But most baseball fans and this sport don't ignore their achievements because it was.... " before my time ". And we shouldn't as Drum Corps fans and as an activity either.

Cadets, BD, Cavies predicted in top three by national fans in a national poll ? Anybody else shocked with this ? I mean it's rare to see these these 3 Corps in a preseason poll like this over the last 20 years of polling fans.

And I do agree that the term " Elite Corps " is a subjective and personal thing. Heck, judging these Corps is also highly subjective as well. If we have a broadened interpretation of what constitutes " Elite " then I might broaden the number of Corps as " Elite " to it's historical and conventional interpretation which usually meant " if you make Finals ".... TOP 12. By this more broadened standard, we find that Corps today in the 8th to 12th placement position are as good if not better than Corps that filled these placement positions in earlier eras. Additionally, Corps that finish ( say) 18h or 19th in DCI today may not be quite able to say with a level of certainty that they were better than Corps that finished in these placement positions in earlier era's ( because of the sheer number of Corps in earlier era's competing for placement positions 18th, 19th, ie... Top 20 .) My " Elite Corps " number still remains..... 3. ( BD, Cadets, Cavs ). It is based on these 3 Corps years of success at the highest level and constituting a large historical framework. But with a more broadened interpretation we are using, and with a smaller historical context, then I'd go with the TOP 12 of today as the " Elite Corps "

For what it's worth, my enjoyment of SCV in any given year is NEVER predicated on placement. If I listed my top 10 SCV shows of all time in order of most enjoyment, there is no connection whatsoever to placements. Some of my most enjoyable SCV shows were years when the judging community called it an " off year " for them placement wise ( 2005 for example ). I reserve and acknowledge the right of judges to judge " excellence ". However, I grant, nor defer to them no such privleges as a paying fan to determine my personal " enjoyment " quotient. Over the years, SCV has usually attained a high level of enjoyment for me. And I wish them well this year.

Good thread topic..... good post. By the time we get to Finals Week, we usually are down to at most 3 or 4 Corps that have a legitimate shot at winning, not 7 Corps. Corps that are at " Elite Status " ( Blue Devils, Cadets, Cavs ) are ALWAYS in the hunt by then. Some Years, all three of these Corps will be in the mix, but rarely if ever, is one pf these 3 Corps not in the mix for the title come Finals Week. BD are rarely not in the top 4 ranking come Finals Week. We are talking 35 years here too. By contrast, The Bluecoats and Crown ( for instance ) consider it a winning season for them when they MAKE the top 3 or 4 in ANY given year. It is a disservice to the accomplishments of these 3 Elite Corps and a disregard to history to assign Elite Status to Corps that havn't finished anywhere close yet to this level. The Bluecoats or Crown would be thrilled to come in 2nd some year. For the Blue Devils ( like the Yankees, Celtics, LA Lakers, etc ) 2nd place is not exactly what they had in mind in preseason. And THAT is why the Cadets, Cavs, and BD are set apart as " Elites ", and Corps in 4th to 7th in any given year, even if they are there every year, are not " Elite Corps " in my opinion.

In answer to the thread question, is there a limit to Elite Corps, I'd say " Yes ". It is limited to 3 Corps..... The Blue Devils, The Cadets, and The Cavaliers. since 1974, 80% of the DCI Championships in those 35 years have been won by just these 3 Corps. ( 28 out of 35 years ) It is a disservice to these 3 Corps to assign elite status to Corps that might finish 2nd -8th most years. I love Phantom Regiment. They might be my overall most favorite Corps going, as any list of my favorite shows of all time, has them in the mix as much as any Corps going. Are they elite status ? No, not if we count them in, but not Madison Scouts, both of which have the same number of won Championships, but with Madison having won 2 of theirs outright and not a tie involved as Phantom has had...... SCV has 4 Titles ( double that of Phantom and Madison ), and that might have put them into elite status except for the fact they have not won a title in 20 years now. I like Crown. But before we put a Corps like this in " Elite Status" they need to win a Title to begin to be even considered " Elite " Bluecoats ? Please. I commend them for their excellence of late. But neither Crown, Bluecoats ( as much as I enjoy their shows of late ) can be considered in the same breath as Blue Devils, Cadets, and Cavaliers as " elites "......... not yet, anyway.

Some Corps will definately come out with a different colored plume. White. Then again..... maybe not. It might have been just a dream, who knows. Isn't the off season fun ?

Religious angle in 2009.... Holy Name Cadets : Notre Dame football. You'll love'em or hate'm, but in the offseason nobody gets more ink than Notre Dame football and in this case the Holy Name Cadets. Sometimes with Notre Dame football ( and the Cadets ) the hype in the off season doesn't match the results when the real games are played the following season. But right now, great things are expected with the Holy Name Cadets and Notre Dame football this season . The NY Yankees ? That franchise has been spooked since the playoffs in '04 and may never recover in our lifetimes from that colossal collapse despite throwing insane amounts of money at Free Agents to secure a WS Title again. That's not The Cadets it seems to me.

1) The Cadevaliers 2) Crown Imperial Impala 3) Phantom Buick 4) Bluecoated Trans Am 5) Camry Cadets 6) The Madison Hummer 7) INT 8) The Boston Bentley 9) The Crossmen Austin 10) Colt 11)Troopergate Mustang 12) Santa Clara SUV

This is true, but unlike other eras, if a kid these days doesn't make the cut for the so called elite Corps, many of them just decide to pack up their bags and go home and not do Drum Corps in the summer, even though there are LOTS of spots open in lower echelon Corps and in DCA Corps for them to march.

I hope the other 88 snare drummers that didn't make the cut, went to other Corps. What a real bummer it would be for the activity and for them if they all didn't eventually find a Drum Corps to march with this Summer.

Predictions :..... Blue Devils win..... Cavs 2nd......Cadets are the fan favorite and in 3rd after slow start and many changes......Crown squeaks in over Phantom at finals......Boston misses finals ( brass line too small )...... Bluecoats slip a bit.....SCV middle of pack.....Bluestars over BK....... Jersey Surf entertaining......Madison percussion hold them back but make finals..... Crossmen back in finals....... Colts out..... Glassmen make finals..... Spirit out..... Troopers out, but improved Guard scores over last year.....not much placement movement at the top throughout the summer tour, but lots of placement movement throughout the summer for Corps in 8-14th. Lots of head scratching by fans on scores and placements from night to night with Corps from 8th to 14th. But then again, I could be all wrong.

In 75 years, they have changed their name less than Randy Johnson has changed baseball teams. In in all those 75 years, it's been " Cadets " and with nary a major change in their uniforms in those 75 years. If we look at a group Corps picture of the Cadets in the 1930's and compare with today's Cadets, there is not a heck of a lot of difference in the uniform with the Brass and Percussion in these 75 years. Contrast this with many other Corps that change their uniforms...... and sometimes in a major way...... all the time ( which is fine, and is their choice )

No Corps in Semi Finals will move up or down more than 2 places at Finals. The 12th place Corps at Finals will receive a lower score than both the 13th and 14th place Corps at Semi- Finals.

Star of Indiana when it comes to cars analogy is General Motors itself. Once... Wealthy, Big, Good, Innovative, and the Standard Bearer of Excellence Now ?..... Gone

I like the way you think....Shadow. You demonstrate a sunny disposition and an uplifting look on things that I'm pretty certain must bring a smile to all those you meet.

When I think of the Santa Clara Vanguard , I think fondly of 6-8 cymbalisms interwoven into the show. That, and a Red Ferrari with a bumper sticker on the back that says '"I support the Arts ".