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Stu

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Everything posted by Stu

  1. The use of the words Objective and Subjective as it relates to placing a score or rank within competition would be: Objective evaluation: ascribing score or rank based on factual and directly measurable information without filtering through personal experience or interpretation. Subjective evaluatuon: ascribing scores and ranking through observation utilizing interpretation and perception which is impacted by personal experience, interpretation, and training. Here are some competetive examples: Drag racing; the fastest time from point a to point b wins; objective determinitation of winner. Ice Dancing: scores ascribed by visual observation from a panal of judges based on set criteria and trained intrpretation; subjective determination of winner. Hockey: the team which puts more pucks in the opponent's goal wins; objective determination of winner. National Cheerleading: scores ascribed by visual observation from a panal of judges based on set criteria and trained intrpretation; subjective determination of winner. Baseball: the team which has most runners rounding the bases to touch home plate wins; objective determination of winner. Marching arts: scores ascribed by visual observation from a panal of judges based on set criteria and trained intrpretation; subjective determination of winner. Note: while ascribed penalties can be at times subjective, they rarely if ever impact the final winners and losers within objectivly scored competitions.
  2. Sure the GE sheets have boxes, descriptors within the boxes, scoring ranges within each box. There is a way to quantify. I never claimed otherwise. However... I have worked in a machine shop evaluating camshaft and crankshaft bearing surfaces, and adjudicated marching arts competitions in the caption of General Effect. Both situations had spec sheets. One had mathematical tolerences like, "up to 0.003 inch wear gets bearing A, 0.003 up to 0.006 inch wear gets bearing B", in which I used a micrometer for measument. The other had 5 boxes with discriptors like, "Conveys design well in most instances, some communication does not translate, energy is apparent throughout most of the performance" and a range of scores for each box; and I observed the ensemble utilizing the interpretation in which I had been trained. While each did have set parameters on their respective sheets as well as box criteria, one was objective and the other subjective. Take a guess which was which.
  3. Please remember what we're talking about here. General effect design, not something like intonation. With intonation you can measure that scientifically with an oscilloscope. However, General effect design is an artistic terminology, it must be evaluated through opinion not science. Therein lies the rub. And if you want consistency in competition, all the judges need to be trained with the same interpretation of General affect design. It matters not what the interpretation is, multiple interpretations can be correct, it is afterall art; but it does matter that the interpretation is consistent throughout all judges. Otherwise the competetive results would be all higgly-piggly. Which leads to what happens to a corps after the first few shows. They are placed into a ranking range early on, and the rest of the judging throughout the season has to be consistent. Therefore, a form of slotting after the season starts is inevitable. There is no way around it in observational scored and ranked competitions like DCI. So, I am not saying DCI can be an objective sport like MlB where any corps can win on any given night. I am just saying that if ya want consistent intetpritation of what is good artistic design in DCI, slotting from early on will begin.
  4. I never said any corps was denied placement. Here is what I said: A) The words on the GE rubric sheets do set peramiters, but they are far from being objective criteria. Math equations written on a sheet are objective, descriptors of what constitutes general effect design are not. B) The words on the GE sheets are interpreted by the judges who are trained in that particular interpretation. C) The judges then observe live performances and apply their training to the best of their ability. D) The end result of scoring and ranking is therefore Subjective not Objective. Opinion not Fact. No corps has ever been denied a placement. They are placed in accordance to their ranking range. A range that is set early on for each corps, and reinforced by like minded subjective observation throughout the rest of the season.
  5. A) I cannot say any read is poor or good. Those are subjective terms. And the only subjective evaluations which matter are the ones made by the official judges. B) I am not saying early reads that are considered by anyone as being poor are indeed poor. They are merely first reads by official judges. C) Majority rule? Nope. But adjudicators who are supposed to be trained the same, interpret the same, subjectively evaluate the same, from early on to finals, in the name of consistency? Yep. D) it is item (c) that creates a corps' early on general ranking range which will be in place for the entire season; it is based on a consistent official judging view early on of what is determined to be good/bad design. And design is something that can be tweeked but not blown out and completely changed. Thus it only allows the corps to move around throughout the rest of the season within the early on assigned range. E) Here is the proof: It is already detetmined, here in June, by the subjective evaluation of the official judges, that the Scouts will not win this year and SCV will not competitively fall out of the top six this year. And, as opposed to objective scoring sports, there is not a darn thing the players can do to change that outcome. Therefore, that early determination of design ranking range by subjective judges which will stay pretty much intact throughout the entire season is, by definition, a form of slotting.
  6. See what I posted to queenanne. It is also applicable to your post.
  7. I am saying three things: 1) That once the DCI season begins, and designs are evaluated in the first few shows, corps are placed in range groupings (general range positions) in which they will stay the entire season. And a corps that is determined 'early on' to be in the top design group will not fall out into a lower group, nor will a corps that is determined 'early on' to be in the lower or middle design group have a shot at a medal that year. 2) This 'early on' determination is actually a form of slotting because it is determined by subjective evaluation and ranking by judges based on something beyond the control of the players: design by the staff which is rather unchangeable once the season begins. And there is nothing the players can do to get out of that 'early on' slotted range. 3) This is opposed to objective scored sports like MLB where if the players stink early on, but rally mid to late season to score more runs than their opponents, an 'early on last place team' can in fact still become world champions in that very same season.
  8. I never said slotting was arbitrary. But it only begins once a show has been first put on the field and the design is evaluated in the first few shows of the season. You and Queenanne can be as obtuse as you want by denying the word slotted, but both of you just admited that since designs cannot be thrown out, completely rewritten, and taught anew, once the season starts, corps are placed very early on in range groupings (slotted in that range) then cannot move out of that range due to the percieved design flaws which will always be there the entire season. And that cannot occur in objective scored sports like MLB, but it happens all the time in subjectively evaluated rankings like DCI.
  9. Sure, it is two vastly different competitive criteria; objective scoring (MLB) and subjective evaluation ranking (DCI). That was one of the things in which I was pointing out in which is that slotting in MLB cannot occur. But you have actually also just supported my premise. That after the first or second DCI show within a season the evaulation of design actually does begin to place each corps into a 'range' in which there is no way to overcome. You can be as obtuse as you want by denying the word, but even you just admited that Regiment and Scouts are already in a 'slotted' range.
  10. The Minnesota Twins and the Atlanta Braves both started the 1991 MLB season in last place. By the end of that season they were both in the World Series, and the Twins became the Champions. So, if Phantom Regiment and Madison Scouts can do that sort of thing this year, fight it out for 1st and 2nd on Finals night, I will say there is no early season numbers management trend slotting within DCI. Otherwise early season trend slotting, which in turn directly impacts subjective ranking for the rest of the season, is a very real occurance in DCI.
  11. In objective scored sports, the Red Sox win or lose by how many runners cross home plate. It would be an entirely different competition, however, if their ranking in the MLB season was determined by being subjectively evaluated on how well they sashay around the bases.
  12. Either the corps are determined early on who has the design and slotted accordingly or they aren't. However, you have contridicted yourself in this single post. You claim no slotting; but you yourself are already seperating corps into final outcome groups, and based just on the first show out of the gate; thus you yourself have already set up trends for for slotting during the rest of the season.
  13. Oh my!!!! Early trends and subsiquent slotting greatly impacts the rankings for the entire season!!! Oh my!!!! Who would have ever tought that would ever be the case in DCI!!! Oh my!!!!
  14. You may love the Bluecoats. However, imo you love them as a good friend but love the Cavaliers as your most beloved relative. Thus I do not believe for a second, and I am serious, that with an app on your phone you would vote for the Bluecoats over the Cavaliers unless the Cavies were just so awful you could not justify it.
  15. In all honesty, do you really believe that is how it would work? Or... Would the parents, family, friends, and alumni of each corps, the people who collectivly make up a majority of the audience, actually vote for their own blood, brothers, and sisters instead of a more deserving rival? I lean toward the latter.
  16. Ignoring emotional communication when evaluating art is akin to ignoring love in human relationships. One does so at great peril. Just like someone who is in a sound relationship will not just look at content and execution but also at the intangible, a good evaluator of art will also look beyond the content and execution to deeply comprehend what moves the soul. The problem DCI has in the build-up evaluation system is attempting to quantify General Effect, an intangible, and assign a ranking number. The more that intangible is placed in a rubric box with descriptors and with preset interpretation criteria, the farther that intangible moves away from human emotion. Try applying that rubric to love and see what happens!!
  17. It just dawned on me that in your avatar, snoopy, on his monitor, is watching the reaction of someone who is reacting to the reaction of someone watching him based on his reaction to who he is watching. And they are all deriving great pleasure watching each other's reactions. So goes the intelligent use of the internet!
  18. George I know you meant well. And it is fun to watch a crowd reaction at a live DCI event, or even watch a new baby discovering his/her feet for the first time. But imo I do not know what is more pathetic: the narcissistic peopie who post videos of themselves doing nothing more than watching a monitor, or the folks with nothing else better to do than feed into that person's narcissism by watching them watch a monitor.
  19. Ummmm... truth be told that one is actually really easy. However, we parents just do not make it known because of the dire consequences which would follow! 🙃
  20. Could there be a potential drug abuse issue to address with the youth? Sure; with thousands of people there will be some who will engage. But here is my take: Performance enhancment drugs (steroids, etc), or recreational drugs, maybe with a few but very small chance on a larger scale. However, the misuse of common alergy meds (same ingredients in sleeping pills) to relax and sleep on the bus, or misuse of caffeine and ginseng (5 hour energy, etc) to boost adrenalin and dopamine in order to quickly wake up after floor time, quite possible.
  21. Wonder the likelyhood today of a 20th place corps jumping to 4th in just one season? It should be able to happen since a few here on DCP claim there is, cough, cough, no institutionalized slotting.
  22. Thanks for the chuckle. As I skimmed across the words 'old friend' my mind went into the mode of thinking somewhere around 1978, so as I read 2011 it caught me off guard. 🙃
  23. Competetive bowling has also had an uptic. But it came with two-hand rotation spin techique and the allowence for close quarter loud heckling from the live spectators. I even just saw a tv ad for a new competitive mini golf obstacle course combo. Maybe that is the ticket for DCI. Full contact AI robot drum corps with heckling!!! Ha ha!!!!
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