Amping the brass line

[brians]

5 minutes ago, CorpsLife said:

Putting 60 wireless mics into the area of a football stadium won't work. They frequency bands used would cause so much interference it would be impossible. 10-20 ok, 60 plus, no way! Not to mention professional wireless systems cost a lot. Like 2-5k each. Having all those wireless mics would take up huge amounts of racks on the front line. Each one would have to be calibrated before the show. As a professional live sound engineer I can say NO ONE is doing this. Not even in other professional shows. The Other Side of this, there is no mixer that could pull this off. Modern digital mixers max out at 96 inputs. After your Front Ensemble uses up 30 or so of those, not enough to add in a whole horn line. 

The Mic's across the front line will only work well for about 20 feet. Turning the gain up enough to capture the whole field would cause huge feedback issues, even with eq'ing out frequencies. (Which would have to be done Per venue as they change. Cause even more setup time.) The infrastructure to set this up, use it properly, and pull out in 20 min is just not there. Professionals doing this for large show production spend a couple hours a day getting this ready in a venue. It's impossible to get it done in 5 min.

just have the horn line play over a pre recorded sample of the hornline.  No need to have all the horns amped, just a few of each voice at select moments to enhance the sound at impact or other moments.

[CorpsLife]

2 minutes ago, brians said:

just have the horn line play over a pre recorded sample of the hornline.  No need to have all the horns amped, just a few of each voice at select moments to enhance the sound at impact or other moments.

Well now you run into a whole different set of issues. When you press play on the pre recorded track, you better hope that the corps playing dead in time. Or you have to set up a click track and have it run to the DM's in ears. (Which I think is illegal) The click track route is what all your stage acts are doing. 

Micing key players at certain times, I'm ok with. Solos and what not. That is possible. I was mostly arguing with the people saying "mic the whole corps". It's just not possible right now. What most corps are doing is filling out the sound with the synths. Corps that are doing it well, you won't even notice.

[brians]

1 hour ago, CorpsLife said:

Well now you run into a whole different set of issues. When you press play on the pre recorded track, you better hope that the corps playing dead in time. Or you have to set up a click track and have it run to the DM's in ears. (Which I think is illegal) The click track route is what all your stage acts are doing. 

Micing key players at certain times, I'm ok with. Solos and what not. That is possible. I was mostly arguing with the people saying "mic the whole corps". It's just not possible right now. What most corps are doing is filling out the sound with the synths. Corps that are doing it well, you won't even notice.

timing is not an issue with most of the top corps, this is what they do (just slowly turn it up once the note begins).  Micing players can (is) being done for more than solos, or small ensembles, but rather to enhance sound at impact moments or to fill out the sound at difficult parts or as part of the large ensemble so as to make the line sound louder at key points.  I would not have an issue with just solosts or small ensembles being miced, but things have moved way beyond that at this point.

Edited July 19, 2017 by brians

[Stu]

2 hours ago, brians said:

timing is not an issue with most of the top corps,

Sync timing working in one direction does not mean it will work in reverse.  Earlier I posted that I have done experiments with various ensembles; even professional ensembles.  One of the experiments utilized audio tracks to sync with the ensembles to see how accurate their internal timings were.  When the ensembles came in off the timing of the audio track already being played things pretty much always went well.  However, when the audio track was punched in based on the timing of the performers who were already playing that rarely worked, even in the professional settings.  The only way we could get that to work was to make sure a sync-click was used to start the piece, keep the click going in the ear of the performers while the performers played, then the audio which was synced up to the existing click fired off at a pre-set time; that worked out well.  However, when done without the underlying consent click in their ears, even with a conductor still using an ear monitor tied to the click, it normally caused train wrecks when the audio track fired off over the performers already playing.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Stu

[brians]

as the season is progressing and now more corps are experimenting with amping the horns, seems we need to continue the discussion

[cowtown]

Does anyone respect the brass staff that thought this was a good idea or that they could pull it off well?

Understanding the basic nature of sound, speakers, cable and mixing, it’s such an inferior product they are offering.

 

[BRASSO]

25 minutes ago, cowtown said:

Does anyone respect the brass staff that thought this was a good idea or that they could pull it off well?

 

 

 Well to be frank ( and I KNOW you like frankness ), If the  GE  and Music judges reward the Corps that are doing this, then  I would say lots of people will " respect " that decision with those that do this. Why not ?. It would have worked on the sheets,  wouldn;t it have ? Lets not conflate with what works ( and dossn't work ) for Corps with the Judges and what works or does not work for YOU , or other fans. Audiences are a non factor on what is rewarded on the judging sheets used in competition. Audiences have never been asked what should be included in the judging sheets. Corps ONLY were asked this. They approved these judging sheets, and  yes they do believe they can " pull it off well " what they are doing now on these judging sheets that they were involved in developing and then approved for use in their competitions.

Edited August 2, 2017 by BRASSO

[cowtown]

And you think I respect the corps’ poodles called judges over the physics of  amplified sound?

 

I've got this bridge for sale, you interested? 

[Schnitzel]

2 hours ago, BRASSO said:

 Well to be frank ( and I KNOW you like frankness ), If the  GE  and Music judges reward the Corps that are doing this, then  I would say lots of people will " respect " that decision with those that do this. Why not ?. It would have worked on the sheets,  wouldn;t it have ? Lets not conflate with what works ( and dossn't work ) for Corps with the Judges and what works or does not work for YOU , or other fans. Audiences are a non factor on what is rewarded on the judging sheets used in competition. Audiences have never been asked what should be included in the judging sheets. Corps ONLY were asked this. They approved these judging sheets, and  yes they do believe they can " pull it off well " what they are doing now on these judging sheets that they were involved in developing and then approved for use in their competitions.

My guess is that, at this point, the amplification techniques (or result of them) are being "accepted" by judges, more than anything else.  Since one of the most unique aspects of the 2016 Champions' presentation was previously unexplored sound reinforcements (particularly sound sourcing and ambience), there is likely a philosophy of nurturing in assessments as staffs deal with the various technical issues involved.  This phenomenon certainly has historical precedent.  It is not to suggest that comparative judgments are not being made, however.  It should come as a shock to no one that groups are entering this newer aspect of design at various levels of understanding, both technically and artistically.

There certainly is a lot of discussion about the ramifications of sound reinforcement, as well as the use of synthetic sounds, both musical and otherwise.  As per normal, the paying customers tend to be more reactionary than adjudicators - likely for good reason.  For the most part (but not exclusively) audiences are more product oriented than judges, who are more likely to be focused on process (but not exclusively).  Again, there's a relative logic to this.  It's nothing less than ironic that the use of synthetic sounds was the focus of discussions leading to the approval of "electronics," and now post-implementation, it's the sound reinforcement aspect that's the more problematic.  As suggested earlier in this thread, this discussion will most likely continue long past the 2017 season.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Schnitzel

[denverjohn]

On 7/17/2017 at 8:26 PM, Stu said:

Lucas Oil stadium needs to be around 41% less in Finals ticket sales this year

Unfortunately, good seats are frequently purchased well in advance of program reveals. Airline and hotels rooms book well in advance as well.