How do we save Drum Corps

[Grandpa]

This? From you, of all people? The author of the "save drum corps by turning it into super marching band" thread?

Have you ever been to a marching band show? If so, I shudder to think what "commentary" you'd have.

What Jester put on the field may have paled in comparison to other drum corps (particularly in the Western time zone), but why does that make it OK to rip on them in a manner that would not be tolerated if directed toward a marching band of equal caliber?

Well - this is that same old "if it isn't G8 it's a waste of resouces" mentality again. A few people on this board seem to have it. I think they are missing the entire point of drum corps, but maybe that's just me.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Grandpa

[CrunchyTenor]

This? From you, of all people? The author of the "save drum corps by turning it into super marching band" thread?

Have you ever been to a marching band show? If so, I shudder to think what "commentary" you'd have.

What Jester put on the field may have paled in comparison to other drum corps (particularly in the Western time zone), but why does that make it OK to rip on them in a manner that would not be tolerated if directed toward a marching band of equal caliber?

It's the same elitist attitude that's been pointing drum corps toward being an activity for the rich for decades. Little drum corps that are willing to take the less talented and give them an opportunity to devolp their skills are looked upon as not worthy. Screw that. Jester, when they existed, and corps like Blue Saints, Les Stentors, Racine Scouts, all have a reason and a right to exist.

There was a time when the Racine Scouts were a finalist corps in VFW Championships, long before DCI existed. They were as high as 3rd in 1963. I think they've earned the right to take the field. In fact, they are the oldest continually competing drum corps in the world, even older than Cadets or Madison. While they compete in Open Class now, I think of the thousands and thousands of young men and women that have worn that uniform. All of the current World Class corps, with the two listed earlier being the exceptions, will be playing catch-up to the Racine Scouts in their service to youth in music for a while yet.

Well - this is that same old "if it isn't G8 it's a waste of resouces" mentality again. A few people on this board seem to have it. I think they are missing the entire point of drum corps, but maybe that's just me.

Well, when it's all you know...

IMO, it all depends on what kind of program you come out of. Certain corps with elitist attitudes ingrain that philosophy in their membership, and they carry that attitude with them for the rest of their life. Maybe if they got involved with a small corps program and really learned the value of the drum corps experience they might change their tune (pardon the pun), but i doubt many with the attitude would "waste their time".

Garry in Vegas

Edited August 4, 2011 by CrunchyTenor

[Tom Brace]

This? From you, of all people? The author of the "save drum corps by turning it into super marching band" thread?

Have you ever been to a marching band show? If so, I shudder to think what "commentary" you'd have.

What Jester put on the field may have paled in comparison to other drum corps (particularly in the Western time zone), but why does that make it OK to rip on them in a manner that would not be tolerated if directed toward a marching band of equal caliber?

I did not "rip" them. I made what I feel to be an honest opinion on the quality of their performance. It was not good. Not anywhere NEAR good.

And, I believe you misread the tenor of the discussion on the parody of this thread. Posts were saying that A&E destroyed drum corps as WE (emphasis added) know it. I disagree. I don't believe what we watch is drum corps. I don't think it has been since it stopped being this pseudo militaristic activity with posting of colors and guns going off and, in reality, the hippy age of the 1970s.

I believe it's been steadily pulling away since those days, even in the DCA circuit, albeit at a slower, more comfortable pace. And I believe the one biggest factor in all of this has been DCIs rule to allow only under 22 year olds to compete. That has more to do with the rapid changes going on than anything else I can place a finger on. It's the only thing that has guaranteed change. There are always going to be "age outs" and "rookies."

Anyway. Did you witness a Jester performance at the beginning of a season?

[Tom Brace]

Well - this is that same old "if it isn't G8 it's a waste of resouces" mentality again. A few people on this board seem to have it. I think they are missing the entire point of drum corps, but maybe that's just me.

What is this "entire point?"

[Tom Brace]

It's the same elitist attitude that's been pointing drum corps toward being an activity for the rich for decades. Little drum corps that are willing to take the less talented and give them an opportunity to devolp their skills are looked upon as not worthy. Screw that. Jester, when they existed, and corps like Blue Saints, Les Stentors, Racine Scouts, all have a reason and a right to exist.

There was a time when the Racine Scouts were a finalist corps in VFW Championships, long before DCI existed. They were as high as 3rd in 1963. I think they've earned the right to take the field. In fact, they are the oldest continually competing drum corps in the world, even older than Cadets or Madison. While they compete in Open Class now, I think of the thousands and thousands of young men and women that have worn that uniform. All of the current World Class corps, with the two listed earlier being the exceptions, will be playing catch-up to the Racine Scouts in their service to youth in music for a while yet.

Well, when it's all you know...

IMO, it all depends on what kind of program you come out of. Certain corps with elitist attitudes ingrain that philosophy in their membership, and they carry that attitude with them for the rest of their life. Maybe if they got involved with a small corps program and really learned the value of the drum corps experience they might change their tune (pardon the pun), but i doubt many with the attitude would "waste their time".

Garry in Vegas

To an extent you, Garry and audiob (won't reveal his/her identity)are correct. I am an elitist when it comes to a drum corps' performance in a show where I pay for tickets to said show. Maybe its because I've been taught over 40+ years what a good drum corps sounds and looks like. I can even see those cases where one or the other are there and there is real effort. I believe what the kids at Pioneer are accomplishing this year to be amazing for such a small group. So, yep. Call me an elitist. Call the empty seats at Open Class Finals in Michigan City elitist.

We've been taught the wrong things. We won't be forced to sit and watch Jester or defend the small learning corps when they perform in front of paying crowds.

See, I grew up sitting on the bench in baseball before the days of "every kid gets to play." I practiced every practice, but what I learned...was...I wasn't good enough yet. Wow. What a great lesson that we constantly fail to teach young people today. Today it's about how every kid is a precious little snowflake and should be applauded and get a trophy for attendance. Yuck. That's not may philosophy at all.

I practiced. I kept striking out. I kept throwing wildly. I didn't get it right away. But, I kept practicing and even when I got better...even when I was getting better than the right fielder...I still sat on the bench. I started to whine a bit...kick the dust...complain. Coach told me another lesson...you don't just get that job...you earn that job.

I guess that's what drives some of this. Who knows. But, this isn't a small corps/big corps thing at all. I know what a good performance is at EVERY level. I grew up on the DCM circuit and I was watching shows longer than that. If Blue Stars have 40 kids (they did in the 1990s) and Racine Scouts have 35 kids and they play one after another and Blue Stars are way better...that's the Racine Scouts fault in my mind. Kids are kids. Every corps has kids. What you do with the kids matters when it comes onto the field for that 8-10 minutes. Blue Stars actually had a good performance. Racine Scouts did not. Both have long traditions...blah blah blah. One earned my ticket dollars...one took my ticket dollars. Again, my philosophy.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Tom Brace

[audiodb]

I did not "rip" them. I made what I feel to be an honest opinion on the quality of their performance. It was not good. Not anywhere NEAR good.

And, I believe you misread the tenor of the discussion on the parody of this thread. (snip)

The "tenor" of the thread? You took an entire multi-paragraph post by Garry, and ignored the entire context and "tenor" of the post/thread to go off on this Jester-bashing tangent.

Anyway. Did you witness a Jester performance at the beginning of a season?

No. Only saw them in July (both '05 and '06). But if I remember correctly, what I saw in '05 was probably much like what you are commenting on. But again:

1. What's that got to do with this thread?

2. There are hundreds of competitive marching bands whose performances (and designs) are on the same level of what Jester showed you; hundreds of others at lower levels. Just finding it curious why you (and others) are suddenly so quick to demonize smaller corps, while having not one word of criticism for marching band programs. If it was just garden-variety elitism, that would be one thing....but when the same people are extolling the virtues of marching band, and aligning DCI with marching band, it does seem puzzling.

[danielray]

Why are you so intolerant of change?

Well, cucumber sandwiches are simply a favorite of the queen. I'm up for her trying something new.

[danielray]

Oh, this is silly. First, hardly any objection is registered to this inane remark....

....inane because it's author has no problem with marching band events, many of which fit that same description.

Then, just a couple of posts later, marching band gets mentioned coincidentally....

These two posters have no quarrel with each other's points? I guess it's OK to spend money on unprofitable grass-roots marching events, just as long as it's the taxpayers' money.

Bands get to use public facilities... a great advantage in terms of cost. With lack of additional costs for rent and subsidized transport, it is possible to have small marching band shows do ok financially.

Not all costs are covered by tax dollars... but boosters and fees. For example, my niece's marching band fees this year are on drum corps level.... $1,875.

[mobrien]

Well, then, we have a huge problem....because we took an activity with a clear definition, and have been moving away from that definition continuously for decades. Now, the answer is to replace it with an even more nebulous "product definition"?

For the kids that go to schools that don't have one of those programs....or are older/younger than HS age.

I'll tell you who those schools are - they're schools in disadvantaged communities. In middle class America, it's rare to have a high school and middle school with no free music program via school band and/or orchestra.

So what you want defend is something that hasn't been seen since the 1960s - the urban drum corps designed to get kids off the street. Well, if anyone wants to start a program like that in Newark, NJ, or the Lawndale neighborhood in Chicago - absolutely - put me down for $1,000 matching grant, as soon as you find me the list of members from those communities who are going to run these programs.

And IF those programs got going, trust me - those kids aren't gonna want to play "Battle Hymn of the ####in' Republic" anymore than kids from the suburbs do. They're going to want shows that are on the cutting edge of whatever the art form is, and it's both pedantic and condescending to assume that they'd be happy with a show modeled on the 1967 Blessed Sac show.

Honestly, try the Reality-based world; the water's warm, and the margaritas are killer.

Edited August 5, 2011 by mobrien

[audiodb]

I'll tell you who those schools are - they're schools in disadvantaged communities.

No. Some are, some aren't.

In middle class America, it's rare to have a high school and middle school with no free music program via school band and/or orchestra.

That is true. But still, over 80% of high schools do not have a competitive marching band program. Many of those schools do have other music programs, and often a marching band for football halftimes....but they don't participate in marching band contests.

So what you want defend is something that hasn't been seen since the 1960s - the urban drum corps designed to get kids off the street. Well, if anyone wants to start a program like that in Newark, NJ, or the Lawndale neighborhood in Chicago - absolutely - put me down for $1,000 matching grant, as soon as you find me the list of members from those communities who are going to run these programs.

Like I've said before, the lack of adults to run corps is an increasingly large hurdle to establishing and maintaining drum corps programs....at any level.

And IF those programs got going, trust me - those kids aren't gonna want to play "Battle Hymn of the ####in' Republic" anymore than kids from the suburbs do. They're going to want shows that are on the cutting edge of whatever the art form is, and it's both pedantic and condescending to assume that they'd be happy with a show modeled on the 1967 Blessed Sac show.

Honestly, try the Reality-based world; the water's warm, and the margaritas are killer.

Wow.

You know, if you even bothered to distinguish one poster from another on this board, you'd realize that I never made any reference to '67 Sac, Battle Hymn, or even the slightest inference about how any new corps should approach show design. But I guess in your broad-brushed world view, anyone that even suggests the possibility that grass-roots drum corps could serve markets untapped by marching band must therefore be a grizzled dino, still steaming over the American flag presentation being rendered optional in the 1970s. (I hadn't even seen a drum corps yet when that transpired.)

Perhaps you should heed your own advice about the reality-based world....but with a few less margaritas.