WGI, Time for a change?-

[Kamarag]

> Percussion is influencing guard

Really? Percussion is influencing Guard? Really? I mean, I see drummers a dancin' and a prancin' the ballet, but where do you see any guard members a drummin' those hybrids?

Over the last couple of years, both locally and at the national level, the percussion side has seen FAR more innovation (both artistically and from an entertainment standpoint) than the guard side. It's really not even close.

[Stu]

Over the last couple of years, both locally and at the national level, the percussion side has seen FAR more innovation (both artistically and from an entertainment standpoint) than the guard side. It's really not even close.

I agree; drummers are figuring out different ways to shake their booties, but guard members have not even attempted cheese-inverts let alone bo0k reports!

[Kamarag]

I agree; drummers are figuring out different ways to shake their booties, but guard members have not even attempted cheese-inverts let alone bo0k reports!

Ahh, typical Stu. Can't engage in an actual conversation, so you make a bad joke. Figures. I doubt you even know what cheese inverts are :)

Edited November 22, 2011 by Kamarag

[Stu]

Ahh, typical Stu. Can't engage in an actual conversation, so you make a bad joke. Figures. I doubt you even know what cheese inverts are :)

You can throw out as much bait as you want, but I am not a fish so I will not bite. Besides, I like the cool cheetah on the bag of those cheese inverts!

[Jeff Ream]

You can throw out as much bait as you want, but I am not a fish so I will not bite. Besides, I like the cool cheetah on the bag of those cheese inverts!

Stu, he raises a point. The entertainment factor has little to do with dancing and bodywork alone. Has the body enhanced things? yes? And at times, regardless of whata unit may thingk, it has hurt things. I have the tapes to prove it. Doing all that movement for the sake of movement gets no one any points or credit. If the movement affects the playing, it will be addressed.

[drumguy50]

hardly. She's far more attractive. Oh, and female.

Ralph walked away, yes. Do you know the reasons? You seem to imply he was pushed out.

As for regionals, some were up...some were down. Dayton was pretty much about the same. Probably more scholastic and few indy groups. That happens when the economy gets tight. Dayton as it's set up now really doesnt have room for more units without incurring the cost of another facility and/or another day.

I do support the current admin team, tho I do ask questions if something doesn't make sense. Guess what i found out....if you ask nicely, they'll answer those questions! In fact I was lucky enough to attend a clinic today where one of the better visual judges spoke, and really just summed it up so well in terms of designing for the A class in terms of visual effect and the ensemble visual sheet. See.....the problem isn't always the system. Sometimes the problem is people that can't look at their program objectively. Also, a great point raised today, is sometimes the paradigm shifts....and basic skills become a little more advanced as we have seen the last few years. More units master similar things that are just a notch above what they all mastered last year.

Oh and I never marched Crossmen. Wish I had. Did have the pleasure of learning under Mark some at Westshore when he wrote, and in the now 22 years since we first met, Mark's always been extremely gracious in answering questions and giving advice. As someone who has helped take a local circuit and finally get it aligned with WGI's tolerances and philosophy, Mark has been an incredible resource to myself and other administrators. Even took a ton of time to sit down and go over stuff with myself and a friend in Dayton during the 2010 Percussion weekend. Was also kind enough to check out our circuits finals last year, on his dime, and let us know if we were lining up right.

Quite honestly.....on a national and local level, I think the percussion world has their act far more together than the other indoor idioms.

I am not suggesting they are being forced out. I am suggesting there is a reason that many people are leaving. Ralph, Bret, JR, Mickey, and several more are a lot.

Mark I saw your "let's take it outside" note (if it is actually Mark Thurston) but would prefer to keep the discussion in the forum. If I am wrong on several or all accounts I have no problem saying so here. Perhaps you could clear up some of the inaccuracies here?

[Kamarag]

I am not suggesting they are being forced out. I am suggesting there is a reason that many people are leaving.

Sure. Sometimes the activity (be it sports, band, whatever) passes you by. Sometimes it evolves in a direction you don't like (common in the arts). Sometimes you just get tired. And sometimes you decide to hand it over to the next generation so they can take it to new heights.

One thing is for sure...indoor percussion has never been as popular as it is now, both on the local level and at the WGI level.

[actucker]

I am not suggesting they are being forced out. I am suggesting there is a reason that many people are leaving. Ralph, Bret, JR, Mickey, and several more are a lot.

Mark I saw your "let's take it outside" note (if it is actually Mark Thurston) but would prefer to keep the discussion in the forum. If I am wrong on several or all accounts I have no problem saying so here. Perhaps you could clear up some of the inaccuracies here?

Exactly what are you expecting Mr. Thurston to clear up on this forum? You haven't actually made any real claims other than "the best playing groups don't win", which is a) subjective, and b) apparently not even the opinion of most of the people in this thread. You seem to have some sort of personal beef with WGI, which is exactly why Mr. Thurston suggested that this isn't the forum for this discussion. Perhaps you should clear up exactly what your experience is that has given you the impression that WGI is headed in the wrong direction, as the huge popularity, and increasing number of auditioning members at groups all over the country seem to disagree with you.

[Jeff Ream]

I am not suggesting they are being forced out. I am suggesting there is a reason that many people are leaving. Ralph, Bret, JR, Mickey, and several more are a lot.

Mark I saw your "let's take it outside" note (if it is actually Mark Thurston) but would prefer to keep the discussion in the forum. If I am wrong on several or all accounts I have no problem saying so here. Perhaps you could clear up some of the inaccuracies here?

it was Mark.

And people don't leave other places when they decide to move on? The guys I see judging DCA are different from years ago. Same in DCI.

Seems to me, you need to contact Mark.

[actucker]

This thread has been quiet for a little while now, but I just got back from judges training at my local percussion circuit and we talked a lot about some things that are relevant. Just a bit of background, the circuit I'm active in (aside from WGI) uses the same sheets/rulebook as WGI, and they always bring in WGI judges for their training. During the PA portion of the workshop we talked a lot about the question of demand vs execution and there were really good arguments on both sides. The clinician brought in videos of a few groups, and used two specific examples to talk about this particular aspect of the PA sheet. He didn't say anything about the groups he was playing, or even what the discussion would be about. He even edited out the part of the video that introduced each group to try to minimize the biases in the room. He played group one, and asked us all to assign numbers. We didn't discuss, but we each had to assign a number without any other comparison. Then he played group two and we assigned numbers then. When we were done assigning numbers to each group, we had to justify them as if we were in critique with those groups. He played devils advocate and really got us all to think about it.

The interesting thing was the two shows he chose, which he later revealed that he had chosen in order to start a discussion on this very topic organically without any pretense. One group was very in your face, playing a lot of loud and fast notes at a very high level. Everything was very clean, and the show was extremely intense. The second show was much more subdued, but also much more intricate. From the first note, you could tell that there was much more nuance to the writing. They weren't playing as many notes, but the stylistic uniformity was much stronger. The interesting thing was that the numbers we all assigned were all over the map, and there were a lot of points made to support putting either group over the other. The first group was without question cleaner, and they were playing more notes. But they weren't doing as much with those notes. Some called group 2 a "breath of fresh air", while others liked the attitude behind group one. The thing is, neither argument was wrong. It was a really eye opening conversation about where different points of view came from.

This was all just based on the PA side of the sheet. We had similar conversations in the visual workshop and the GE workshop.

The agreement we all eventually came to was that even something as simple as demand can be subjective. The fact is, its hard to judge such a diverse field. We can complain all we want about the groups we like not winning, but if you really look at how the sheets are written, the judges actually do a pretty good job of judging to them on the national level. Of course there will be judges who's opinions we don't agree with, but in the end, you won't end up in a position to medal in Dayton if you ignore one of the sheets. There will always be those who disagree with the outcome when you're trying to judge art against other art.

Anyway, just thought that the experience I had was relevant to the conversation and thought I'd mention it.