stevedb1975 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) If you're really a player, you can play clean diddles on a can of spam or a kardashian backside No, not true. A real musician plays together because they know how to listen and match. Take away the listening environment and they have nothing except great talent with no way to know if they are together with the next guy with great talent. That's like saying "I'll skype two great musicians in two different states a count off and see if they play together". Won't happen no matter how good they are. Which is why even the three guys on the Roland vid had problems playing clean diddles. Did you listen to that first time through on the "Checkerboard"? Sounded like mush and those are pros! A poor musician says it's the gear, a weak musician says it's the guy next to him, a real musician says shut up and listen. It has nothing to do with blaming the gear. It has to do with a lack of listening environment. Seriously, if you have hands and a head... you can spin straw to gold. If you can't, one of the two is broken. Again, go listen to the first pass of "Checkerboard" on the Roland video the OP posted of the three pro drummers struggling to keep their diddles together and your argument is defeated. And that;'only THREE GUYS who are PROS! And you want to put NINE......NINE...... YOUNG snaredrummers in a gym with sound bouncing all over and you think that if they are "good" they will somewhow magically overcome the listening challenges of where the amps are located and magically to stay together? Really? How are they going to do it? Through osmosis? Edited February 17, 2012 by stevedb1975 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 LOL! Listen bud! You already have a bill for the repair of the computer I spat my drink on earlier. Lets not go for a second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedb1975 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Here Daniel. Check out this video and tell me if you still believe it's possible for an indoor drumline to play together without the sound of each other right next to them. And this is only FIVE (seemingly good) snare drummers. WHAT A CATASTROPHY! And you think that you can put a NINE piece snareline (the average number for a top caliber snareline indoor and outdoor) with amps NO CLOSER than 10 feet away (whether in front or behind doesn't matter) echoing all over a gym and they are going to somehow stay together "because they are good"? That is some BAAAAAD crack you are smoking. Maybe try removing the LSD you are mixing with the crack for a little less delusion and a little clearer of a picture. By the way...yes...we FINALLY found an actual drumline that has used them in performance (indoor at that). WOWZERS what a train wreck!!! I'll admit, it's NEAT (effects and all). But dirtier than planet Mars during a real bad dust storm. Sounds like popcorn in a microwave mixed with the sound of shoes in a dryer. Edited February 17, 2012 by stevedb1975 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedb1975 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) I trust System Blue, and System Blue was paid a lot (or a little...I don't really know...but I assume at least some) of money to put these on their snare line and swear how awesome they are. Although this was just a print add..I think. I'm pretty sure I've never seem them on the field with System Blue. Didn't System Blue even have a set of head phone on each drummer? Still they must be awsome. I think most high schools should really buy head phones, Roland marching pads, and assorted accessories so their drumlines can be just like System Blue. So why did you vote that you "disliked" it then if you think they are "awesome"? NOTICE: This is an open poll. All votes can be viewed even by guests. (watch, now that I've said something he will remove his vote and change it to "like" to save face. Let the record show that as of the time I'm making this post, Johnnyboy's vote on the poll above is a "dislike"). Edited February 18, 2012 by stevedb1975 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 A question for today's field snare drummers: 1. How difficult is it to drum when your sound is not coming off the head? 2. How much more challenging is it to synch with everyone else when everyone's sound is coming out of a speaker and you can't quite be sure which sound is yours? 3. How much of staying together is the feeling in the hands from the bouncing of the sticks on the head and how much is the sound going directly to your ears from the heads of traditional drums? 4. In jazz and rock bands, you'll often find speakers directed at the performers so they know what the total overall sound is. Would it help if there were mini speaker systems hanging on the side of the drum shells pointing directly at the performers' face? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedb1975 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) A question for today's field snare drummers: 1. How difficult is it to drum when your sound is not coming off the head? 2. How much more challenging is it to synch with everyone else when everyone's sound is coming out of a speaker and you can't quite be sure which sound is yours? 3. How much of staying together is the feeling in the hands from the bouncing of the sticks on the head and how much is the sound going directly to your ears from the heads of traditional drums? 4. In jazz and rock bands, you'll often find speakers directed at the performers so they know what the total overall sound is. Would it help if there were mini speaker systems hanging on the side of the drum shells pointing directly at the performers' face? Well I have definitely givin my thoughts on all of this. Though you brought up something new. #4! If someone could figure that one out, it might solve the problem. Obviously, you would hear each other's min-monitors as well as your own...I would IMAGINE as much as you would an accoustic drum (though would have to try it first). Though WHY? What's the point in going through ALL of that hassle when you can get the same results (with a better sound) out of accoustic snares? If it's for the different sound effects you can get from them, give them to a few soloists or use them in the pit and call it a "cool idea". I see absolutely no benefit at all in their use in the context of a full snareline. None at all. But that's just me. Edited February 18, 2012 by stevedb1975 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickhaltsforlife Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 So why did you vote that you "disliked" it then if you think they are "awesome"? NOTICE: This is an open poll. All votes can be viewed even by guests. (watch, now that I've said something he will remove his vote and change it to "like" to save face. Let the record show that as of the time I'm making this post, Johnnyboy's vote on the poll above is a "dislike"). I thought he was being sarcastic in his post... maybe I misread it though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedb1975 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I thought he was being sarcastic in his post... maybe I misread it though... It's possible...but really hard to tell. At least for me it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Here Daniel. Check out this video and tell me if you still believe it's possible for an indoor drumline to play together without the sound of each other right next to them. And this is only FIVE (seemingly good) snare drummers. WHAT A CATASTROPHY! And you think that you can put a NINE piece snareline (the average number for a top caliber snareline indoor and outdoor) with amps NO CLOSER than 10 feet away (whether in front or behind doesn't matter) echoing all over a gym and they are going to somehow stay together "because they are good"? That is some BAAAAAD crack you are smoking. Maybe try removing the LSD you are mixing with the crack for a little less delusion and a little clearer of a picture. By the way...yes...we FINALLY found an actual drumline that has used them in performance (indoor at that). WOWZERS what a train wreck!!! I'll admit, it's NEAT (effects and all). But dirtier than planet Mars during a real bad dust storm. Sounds like popcorn in a microwave mixed with the sound of shoes in a dryer. I would suggest the equipment is probably not set up all that well. If you are going to do this right, there should be in ear monitors that the performers can hear and all instruments should be electronic. When you are trying to mix digital gear where the sound source is stationary and far away from the performer with low acoustic bass drum sounds where sound source is actually generated at the performer, you'd definitely going to have a mess. ALL electronic instruments and in ear monitors and I bet you will have a much better result. Also, the sound on this is funky even when only one person is playing. Not sure if it is poor mic placement in the hall? Recording off the monitors instead of the board? But there are definitely flaws in the setup here. If it was done right, there would likely be a much better result. I would really like to see a top line with very knowledgable engineers use these before saying it can't ever be done well. I just think there hasn't been the solid pioneer with this stuff to figure out exactly what does and what doesn't work to be able to establish best practices for others to follow. Roland should be paying a group to do this (probably non-competitive at first... too big of a competitive risk) and create a set of guidelines for how to write for, stage, operate, etc. System Blue certainly makes the most sense.... but I don't really imagine this group within Roland has an easy time getting the kind of budget yet needed to make this work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedb1975 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) I would suggest the equipment is probably not set up all that well. If you are going to do this right, there should be in ear monitors that the performers can hear and all instruments should be electronic. When you are trying to mix digital gear where the sound source is stationary and far away from the performer with low acoustic bass drum sounds where sound source is actually generated at the performer, you'd definitely going to have a mess. ALL electronic instruments and in ear monitors and I bet you will have a much better result. Also, the sound on this is funky even when only one person is playing. Not sure if it is poor mic placement in the hall? Recording off the monitors instead of the board? But there are definitely flaws in the setup here. If it was done right, there would likely be a much better result. I would really like to see a top line with very knowledgable engineers use these before saying it can't ever be done well. I just think there hasn't been the solid pioneer with this stuff to figure out exactly what does and what doesn't work to be able to establish best practices for others to follow. Roland should be paying a group to do this (probably non-competitive at first... too big of a competitive risk) and create a set of guidelines for how to write for, stage, operate, etc. System Blue certainly makes the most sense.... but I don't really imagine this group within Roland has an easy time getting the kind of budget yet needed to make this work. Your points and ideas are certainly not without validity, Daniel - and I am enjoying this discussion. Allow me to touch on three things here... First, in ear monitors. Drummers, guitar and bass players, keyboard players and singers in mainstream music use them all the time. They work in those kinds of settings. Why? Because you aren't dependent as much on acoustic proximity. Same with horn players. Battery percussion, a whole different ball game. Acoustic proximity is critical. And I think this is what surrounded Michael Boo's questions. You can't just slide some in ears in while marching around a gym or a football field. You have to know who's sound is who's. Yes, In ear monitors do have panning options....but what happens when the guy to your left is suddenly to your right...or behind you...or in front of you. With in ears, you have no idea who's sound is who's. You just hear sound. In a normal musical setting, that's fine. In a battery percussion setting, In ear monitoring is not enough. A person in a snareline counts on what is right next to them. NOW...that being said, Michael's number 4 question in his post above is outstanding and I'm almost embarrassed that I didn't think about it as we were going back and forth. If it's the reaction of the drum next to you and your own that one depends on, having a monitoring devise ON the drum itself really could be a logical way to give a drummer that same sensation they have with the acoustic reaction of an acoustic snare drum right next to them. THAT could work. In ears, mmm....no. In ears are void of the proximity details that a battery percussionist needs. Michael's idea however....not bad...and worth exploring. HOWEVER....the second point I want to touch on... Practicality! Electric drum kits have been around for decades. Who uses them? Churches, a few school programs here and there. Pros sometimes use them on short tours or local live performances. Why are they used in these settings? Because they are PRACTICAL! No other reason. That''s it. UNDERSTAND! I'm talking ONLY about FULL kits. Not isolated drums for effects and such. I'm talking FULL kits. They are ONLY used because they are practical. Nobody buys a Roland electric kit and says "I'm getting this set because I LOVE how they sound and LOVE how they feel. No, usually a drummer buys one reluctantly and despite the fact that they really DON'T like what they sound or feel like. Aside from the sound effects, they just aren't that desirable. They sound dead, robotic and lifeless. Musicality is almost completely obsolete (even with the so called "good" kits that react dynamically). So why are they used? PRACTICALITY! A drummer can back them up easily. Travel with them easily, set them up and tear them down easily. They are convenient. Churches and small schools? Practical also because they ARE "lifeless" and can be turned down in settings where lower DB levels are preferred. So where is the practicality in a drumline for a FULL line full of electronic drums? No such practicality exists. Think of all the ideas you have presented, Dan. Extra sound equipment. In ear monitors which (if done right) would require a second sound board and sound engineer to run the monitoring system separately (because drummers would not and should not want to hear what the audience does). It's a logistical NIGHTMARE. So, the whole point of why electronic drums were created in the first place is non-existent in a drumline setting. It's a lot of HARD HARD work and sacrifice for what kind of payoff? For a line of drums that outside of a few neater effects...in their normal snare setting sound FAR inferior to marching percussion. Which brings me to number three. How good do they sound? Why do pro drummers not use full electronic kits on big jobs (arenas, recording sessions, major headlining tours)? Because they don't sound as good as a great acoustic kit (again, not including a few isolated drums for effect). So why are top drumlines not using them? Just like electric drum kits....they don't sound as good! The effects are GREAT! I can totally see some very well thought out usage in solo/feature settings as well as pits but for a full snareline that just needs to "play the book"....worthless and inferior in terms of quality. All of the life, all of the musicality and all of the finesse is stripped away completely. So, NOW lets go back to the question of why after four years of existence have we not seen any top caliber line use them. I believe your answer is in all I just provided in this post. Edited February 18, 2012 by stevedb1975 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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