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Do you think going DI/World Class caused some corps to fold?


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A few of my friends and I were having a discussion about how alot of corps in the 90s switched from DII/III(Open Class) to DI(World Class), and how about the only corps that survived that exchange were Pioneer, Mandarins, and Carolina Crown. Corps like Nite Express, Southwind, Tarheel Sun, Les Etoiles, Capital Regiment, Academie Musicale, and several others all folded. So we were wondering, do you think if those corps hadn't made the switch, do you think they would still be active today? Or do you think these corps were already on the way down, and trying to use DI/World Class option to try and survive, as the pay per show did increase depending on classification. As much as we love a success story, it is so disappointing to see a corps make the jump, only to fold a few seasons later. So I guess another question is what did Crown, Pioneer, Mandarins, Academy do differently that the other corps didn't do? I don't really consider Blue Stars in that mix, as they started out as DI/World Class, went down to DII and DIII, and then rebuilt to their former success. I know that most of the corps folded due to financial reasons, at least that has been the word through the grapevine, or on the message boards. Looking back, do you think there were other options other than going to DI, that may have saved these corps?

It is really nice that DCI has gone back to the format where the Open Class corps compete in World Class quarterfinals. That way these corps can see how they compare to the big corps on the same sheets. But it would be nice to see those days when there were 30 plus DII/III Open Class corps.

To answer your question. Yes, biting off more than a corps can chew is usually the cause of a corps folding. Though it goes beyond just World Class ambitions. It's management problems. Going World Class prior to being ready is just one of the many mistakes a management often makes because of the touring and financial pressure it puts on a corps that is not ready.

Honestly, now that we are back to the combined prelims, semis and finals where both divisions are welcome, there really is no need for an OC corps to make too quick of a jump to WC. An Open Class corps can competitively flirt with the lower tier World Class corps for several years while still remaining active in Open Class with smaller tours and comfortable budgets. A great change to say the least; and I never understood why they ever changed it in the early 2000s to begin with. Prelims, Semis and Finals were open to corps of all divisions since the start of DCI all the way through 2002. If Magic making finals in 2002 was the reason for the change, that's very petty.

I digress. I do not think there is a corps currently in Open Class who is ready for the responsibilities and pressures of World Class. Furthermore, I think there are several corps who could stand to go back to Open Class. My saying that has nothing to do with competitive success, either (well, maybe for a couple of them it does). It's mainly from a financial and business standpoint that I say this.

Edited by bmjfelts1988
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Two out of three isn't bad!

Enlighten me, which out of the three named corps is doing poorly? They are all doing great in World Class.

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I don't think the changes had to do with DCI or any kind of consolidation. To me it had to do with the number of shows that have disappeared. Used to have at least one show a weekend to go to locally, sometimes even ones on Wednesdays and Fridays. Now, I have to travel some to attend shows within about a 100 mile radius of home. I would say a majority of the corps years ago were not built to do the 'touring' today's corps do. They were more city rivalries. But today, there aren't that many cities holding competitions.

Lack of competitions, to me, has killed drum corps. Hard to field a corps when there is no where to go and no way to make enough money to keep going.

Yep. Even in the last 10 years, the amount of shows is nowhere near what it was. For midwest corps, DCM going away certainly lost a lot of shows. Just compare this: http://www.dci.org/schedule/?mode=corps&criteria=3ed0bd62-bf3c-4ccc-915b-630f9a1c620e to http://corpsreps.com/scores.cfm?view=corpsyrscore&corps=36&corpstype=Junior&yearqry=2002 (as an example of one midwestern corps). I remember a bunch of shows in iowa (about 5, iirc, and a ton more in WI\IL\MN) when i was just starting to get into things 10 years ago, and it dropped as low as just one show in iowa at one point (and there arent nearly as many in the other states either, nowadays)

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Yep. Even in the last 10 years, the amount of shows is nowhere near what it was. For midwest corps, DCM going away certainly lost a lot of shows. Just compare this: http://www.dci.org/s...5b-630f9a1c620e to http://corpsreps.com...or&yearqry=2002 (as an example of one midwestern corps). I remember a bunch of shows in iowa (about 5, iirc, and a ton more in WI\IL\MN) when i was just starting to get into things 10 years ago, and it dropped as low as just one show in iowa at one point (and there arent nearly as many in the other states either, nowadays)

I know things are a LOT different now, but in the mid '70s we had at least 1 show every weekend starting about the first weekend in June, and we often had 2 shows and a parade. From suburban Chicago you could go to a show just about every Friday and Saturday night within a reasonable drive time. Of course since I moved to GA a couple of decades ago there have never been a lot of shows nearby...

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Sad story. All points well made. Any solutions?

Part of me thinks we need to make it easier and cheaper for community-based corps to start up and perform locally with small staffs and without the expense of nationwide touring, while the other part of me thinks we need to empower the corps to proactively break through the clutter of conflicting synergetic portals and streamline the face time of their convergent collaboration with the economic realities in order to seamlessly align their immersion of core competencies with the sea change of organic growth that comes with the real-time mashup sync-up of NextGen analytics in an outside-the-box paradigm virtualization of sustainable best of breed value-added return on investment of client-centric enterprises that pick the low hanging fruit of the enterprising stakeholders.

And yes, the second part implies a smiley. :rolleyes:

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Part of me thinks we need to make it easier and cheaper for community-based corps to start up and perform locally with small staffs and without the expense of nationwide touring, while the other part of me thinks we need to empower the corps to proactively break through the clutter of conflicting synergetic portals and streamline the face time of their convergent collaboration with the economic realities in order to seamlessly align their immersion of core competencies with the sea change of organic growth that comes with the real-time mashup sync-up of NextGen analytics in an outside-the-box paradigm virtualization of sustainable best of breed value-added return on investment of client-centric enterprises that pick the low hanging fruit of the enterprising stakeholders.

And yes, the second part implies a smiley. :rolleyes:

just add in " with common sense solutions " to the end of 2nd part reply, and this sounds so much like a Sarah Palin run on reply, imo.

(Opps... a political comment... so keel me. )

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just add in " with common sense solutions " to the end of 2nd part reply...

Part of me thinks we need to make it easier and cheaper for community-based corps to start up and perform locally with small staffs and without the expense of nationwide touring, while the other part of me thinks we need to empower the corps to proactively break through the clutter of conflicting synergetic portals and streamline the face time of their convergent collaboration with the economic realities in order to seamlessly align their immersion of core competencies with the sea change of organic growth that comes with the real-time mashup sync-up of NextGen analytics in an outside-the-box paradigm virtualization of sustainable best of breed value-added return on investment of client-centric enterprises that pick the low hanging fruit of the enterprising stakeholders via common sense solutions.

(Yeah, that is so much better.)

I think what's been created here is a drum corps mission statement for the post-Mayan Apocalypse era.

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To answer your question. Yes, biting off more than a corps can chew is usually the cause of a corps folding. Though it goes beyond just World Class ambitions. It's management problems. Going World Class prior to being ready is just one of the many mistakes a management often makes because of the touring and financial pressure it puts on a corps that is not ready.

On the contrary, it seems to me that most corps that have moved to world class were ready when they did it. The issue is sustaining that level of health.

Furthermore, I think there are several corps who could stand to go back to Open Class. My saying that has nothing to do with competitive success, either (well, maybe for a couple of them it does). It's mainly from a financial and business standpoint that I say this.

I find this statement fascinating.

I see 8 corps currently in world class who came from lower classes. Which of those corps do you think should go back to open class? And is it correct to assume that you believe the other 15 corps all to be sufficiently healthy from a financial and business standpoint?

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Enlighten me, which out of the three named corps is doing poorly? They are all doing great in World Class.

Maybe I am not reading your question correctly. If you are stating the all these corps have done well inside the lines you may be correct but outside the lines we still have issues! Reading all the posts it becomes obvious that money and management determines the success of any drum corps long term. I would guess that a World Class corps annual budget would have to be no less then 500 to 600k. When corps have little to no income outside member and performance fees this means its only a matter of time before they crash and burn.

The additional posters have some great ideas to limit to financial exposure but that will never pass. The last two weeks of the tour should be earned from the year prior helping some corps save thousands of dollars they don't have. Break it up to the East, Mid-West and West and the top 5 from each Region in each class should be the only ones invited to do the follow years Championship Tour. (Last two weeks the following year)

This would allow DCI to still hold most of the events they still run annually and make it a honor for show sponsors to host an event during the Championship push getting a premium for those shows. The corps that earn the right to make the Championship push can also be paid at a higher rate!

Now, back to your question. I think Jersey Surf with the model they have operated the corps has done very well for them and the management team has been in place since day one. The same can be said for The Academy. Pioneer while I am sure is financially able to support a World Class touring group only has low membership numbers due to management concepts in a time where being innovative is critical to suceed and obtain membership. Teal Sound did well during the past few seasons and getting World Class status but will find it difficult to overcome the financial obligations for a World Class corps as they have very little income from other sources.

I wish them all the best but time will tell!

JVN

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Teal Sound did well during the past few seasons and getting World Class status but will find it difficult to overcome the financial obligations for a World Class corps as they have very little income from other sources.

I wish them all the best but time will tell!

JVN

This just shows that you don't have the first clue what you're talking about. The financial obligations of Teal Sound the last two years in Open Class and the first two years in World Class were pretty much the same. One of the important things about the DCI World Class evaluation process is that they want to see if a corps can operate at a world class level BEFORE they are invited in. Teal Sound proved they belonged in spades.

Additionally, when a corps enters World Class, they don't magically gain new expenses. If anything, it's a bit easier to balance income vs. expenses because of the larger payout over the course of a season. You're also wrong about Teal having little outside income. They play several convention events during the off-season, and that has provided a really nice chunk of change to the corps (not to mention parades during the season).

It's pretty clear that you have an ax to grind against Teal Sound, for whatever reason (your posting history points to this), but here's fun fact for you:

Did you know that Teal Sound has been in continuous operation longer than any corps in Florida history? No time off. Constant growth. Modest goals. You know who you can't say that about? Suncoast Sound, Florida Wave, Magic of Orlando, etc, etc...

Edited by Kamarag
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