Who are the 5 WC Corps you think will benefit the most with new judgin

[camel lips]

I agree with what was said earlier. As long as the judging community controls the interpretation of the sheets then nothing is going to change and the corps that are already benefiting from judges bias will continue to be rewarded.

That applause meter ain't so bad sounding afterall.

[TubaJon]

Let's keep things in perspective:

1) when you say stuff like you are incorrect to imply that Blue Devils show appeals to no one. Their shows, from what I've seen, appeal to many people. All of them? No. The majority of fans? Hard to say for sure. Many people? I think that's a fair stipulation.

Of course I didnt mean that the show doesnt appeal to anyone. It was a just a general statement. And I think if we are being honest with ourselves, a majority of fans have not like BD as of late. And there is pleanty of substance to support that. (See any BD thread since 2009)

2) I get what you're saying making a difference between audience reaction vs quality of design/performance. In my experience, the mainstream in general are morons. I don't mean that in relations to mainstream drum corps fans, per say, but taste is relative and in general audiences like to be pandered to. Often "artists" who mix art with commerce often try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which often delivers a watered-down product devoid of most artistic merit.

For example, "Transformers: Dark of the Moon" is the 4th highest grossing film of all time. It made a heap of money, which can be correlated with popularity. However, you will be hard pressed to find any film scholar that would even entertain the notion that film is anything other than bad. It appealed to the mainstream, but has little artistic value. In contrast, Citizen Kane is often considered one of (if not the) greatest film ever produced. It revolutionized special effects and cinematography, and is often at the top of "best of" type lists. Citizen Kane, however, didn't even rank in the Top 5 grossing films the year of its release!

Mainstream audiences don't like to be challenged, which is why many artistic films only make modest amounts at the box office.

I understand your point, and to a degree I agree with it. If you listen to most modern day music its basically, chord, chord, chord, my girlfriend left me blah blah crap. But i still listen to it, just like a lot of other people. And I do not mind if BD wants to go with "deeper" concepts. But its like looking at a blank canvas with a red square painted on it. Do you a painting that symbolized the pain and suffering of the poverty stricken people of Jamaica, or when you get right down to it, its just a friggen red square lol.

But you want to know what's beautiful? We can have our cake and eat it too. People who love robots blowing up other robots can see Transformers, while people who like deep, challenging films can watch Citizen Kane. Heck people who like to be challenged on Thursday and watch explosions on Friday can see both films.

Same with drum corps.

Madison Scouts can deliver crowd friendly shows that appeal to the masses; Blue Devils can deliver shows that appeal to people who appreciate deeper concepts. Why would anyone want to homogenize the activity and force every corps to design shows the same?

That is the beauty of it. But i think just like you like "deeper" shows or movies, your looking a little too deep into my post. I was just explaining why i think that the new sheets could hurt BD. Especially since the judges dont have the rest of the night to really dwell on what they just watched, they gotta write something down so we can all go home! Im tired by then lol Im not saying BD should stop what they are doing by anymeans. I guess I just side with the folks who like transformers, and see a friggen red square, and as you can see by what is main stream, and makes money, I am among the majority. I like to go to a DCI show and just get blown away, and I prefer the immediate reaction as opposed to going "Ohhhhhhh I get it now!" when I get home. Id like to offer up the Blue Knights as my source. They use to do those deeper shows, and they werent doing so hot with the audiences, nor the judges. Then look at when Cesario took over as DCI's Artistic Director, and said, hey BK, knock that off. A year later they are moving up on judges sheets, and into the hearts of fans.

[GUARDLING]

Of course I didnt mean that the show doesnt appeal to anyone. It was a just a general statement. And I think if we are being honest with ourselves, a majority of fans have not like BD as of late. And there is pleanty of substance to support that. (See any BD thread since 2009)

I understand your point, and to a degree I agree with it. If you listen to most modern day music its basically, chord, chord, chord, my girlfriend left me blah blah crap. But i still listen to it, just like a lot of other people. And I do not mind if BD wants to go with "deeper" concepts. But its like looking at a blank canvas with a red square painted on it. Do you a painting that symbolized the pain and suffering of the poverty stricken people of Jamaica, or when you get right down to it, its just a friggen red square lol.

That is the beauty of it. But i think just like you like "deeper" shows or movies, your looking a little too deep into my post. I was just explaining why i think that the new sheets could hurt BD. Especially since the judges dont have the rest of the night to really dwell on what they just watched, they gotta write something down so we can all go home! Im tired by then lol Im not saying BD should stop what they are doing by anymeans. I guess I just side with the folks who like transformers, and see a friggen red square, and as you can see by what is main stream, and makes money, I am among the majority. I like to go to a DCI show and just get blown away, and I prefer the immediate reaction as opposed to going "Ohhhhhhh I get it now!" when I get home. Id like to offer up the Blue Knights as my source. They use to do those deeper shows, and they werent doing so hot with the audiences, nor the judges. Then look at when Cesario took over as DCI's Artistic Director, and said, hey BK, knock that off. A year later they are moving up on judges sheets, and into the hearts of fans.

BD threads here do not by anymeans show any majority of people within our activity...DCP is a very small percentage and I was watching tonight a study on social networks, news groups etc etc and I think it was talking about politics and other subjects and it was saying how they only show a very scewed point of view from the public..I would tend ( in my line of work ) to believe this.

No Judges will or have sat and dwelled or discussed BD shows or anyones for that matter.....This I know for sure, nor will they..They do just as the general public does.." I Like and why " "I dislike and why "

I agree about Blue Knights BUT I can also say while on tour heard just as many negatives ( Now I didnt say that..lol ) I dont think anyone can truly say what majority is because for just as many one can find to say see look im in the majority..I bet someone from the opposite team can do the same.........Not everyone chooses to speak out or cares to....So I think as in any form of art or entertainment there will always be those who like and those who don't. Not everything or every corps is for the masses BUT I do think there is enough out there for everyone to enjoy and for me anyway want to see all that diversity.....JMO

Edited May 8, 2012 by GUARDLING

[MikeD]

Of course I didnt mean that the show doesnt appeal to anyone. It was a just a general statement. And I think if we are being honest with ourselves, a majority of fans have not like BD as of late. And there is pleanty of substance to support that. (See any BD thread since 2009)

Using DCP as an indicator of anything spanning the total audience is a non-starter. This is a tiny portion of the total drum corps crowd at shows. Vocal to be sure, but hardly evidence for what the 'majority of fans' think. When I see the BD each year, the reception they receive is always excellent. Might not be a rabid reaction in the sense of some other corps like Crown or the Cadets, but not tepid or showing some sort of dislike.

That is the beauty of it. But i think just like you like "deeper" shows or movies, your looking a little too deep into my post. I was just explaining why i think that the new sheets could hurt BD. Especially since the judges dont have the rest of the night to really dwell on what they just watched, they gotta write something down so we can all go home! Im tired by then lol Im not saying BD should stop what they are doing by anymeans. I guess I just side with the folks who like transformers, and see a friggen red square, and as you can see by what is main stream, and makes money, I am among the majority. I like to go to a DCI show and just get blown away, and I prefer the immediate reaction as opposed to going "Ohhhhhhh I get it now!" when I get home. Id like to offer up the Blue Knights as my source. They use to do those deeper shows, and they werent doing so hot with the audiences, nor the judges. Then look at when Cesario took over as DCI's Artistic Director, and said, hey BK, knock that off. A year later they are moving up on judges sheets, and into the hearts of fans.

Personally, while I like BK today, I loved the older BK model. To each their own, and whatever works best for the members, great!

[drumno5]

But you want to know what's beautiful? We can have our cake and eat it too. People who love robots blowing up other robots can see Transformers, while people who like deep, challenging films can watch Citizen Kane. Heck, people who like to be challenged on Thursday and watch explosions on Friday can see both films.

Same with drum corps. Madison Scouts can deliver crowd friendly shows that appeal to the masses; Blue Devils can deliver shows that appeal to people who appreciate deeper concepts. Why would anyone want to homogenize the activity and force every corps to design shows the same?

Well said, friend. Vive le difference!

regards,

Fred O.

[BRASSO]

Vocal to be sure, but hardly evidence for what the 'majority of fans' think. When I see the BD each year, the reception they receive is always excellent.

Well, I believe that I've been to enough Drum Corps shows over the years, and talked to enough people during and after these shows to know how to differentiate between a " golf clap " reception and an enthusiastic reception from audiences of a Corps show . If you believe that the shows you have attended the BD show response from audiences were " excellent ", then either 1) the shows you attended were different than mine or 2) your audience gauge is entirely different than my own. I've seen BD over the years get everything from wildly enthusiastic audience receptions after shows, to very good response receptions, to essentially, polite golf claps for effort. My response does not always mirror the audience at the shows I attend either, but we're not talking about OUR response, but what we perceive to be the audience at large response. I would catergorize BD's show response a bit better on the whole in 2011 than in 2010, but still closer to the golf clap appreciation level than to the wildly enthusiastic receptions witnessed at earlier years BD shows... and not that far back ago either. If you believe that BD's show response of late by audiences to their shows is on par with earlier years shows, thats fine, but we'll just repectfully disagree on this observation, thats all.

Edited May 8, 2012 by BRASSO

[glory]

I want to clear up a misconception that seems to be an occasional undercurrent in this thread.

A majority of the fans like the shows.

It's a fact. We know this because at finals the applause were resolute in appreciation.

Even allowing for those who only "applaud the effort," there was no mistaking that fans liked the shows. Some more. Some less. A majority in favor. No room for doubt if you were looking and listening.

This notion that there is some groundswell of discontent with the performance on the field in Indy (and elsewhere) is a product of DCP belly-aching, much of it from people who didn't show up for a single show. Those of us in the stands saw a preponderance of delight.

HH

PS:

if you want to remember from the perspective of one corps in one early season performance. Edited May 8, 2012 by glory

[BRASSO]

I was watching tonight a study on social networks, news groups etc etc and I think it was talking about politics and other subjects and it was saying how they only show a very scewed point of view from the public..

If it was not for these " networks ", the world would have a much different viewpoint on ( for example ) what went on inside Egypt and Syria the last year. The state controlled media in these countries was sending out a completely different observation than the regular people's observations. The regular people were conversing with one another, and were on the ground and witnessing for themselves live what was happening. You bet your life their view was " skewed " from the propaganda that was being out out by the so called state controlled mainstream media. While there can be drawbacks to false info coming from these networks, ( for example, the elderly couple terrorized by a wrong address sent out by Spike Lee to potential vigilantes in the T. Martin case ), these networks tend to be pretty accurate representations of events as they unfold live, rather than a news crew or a single reporter trying to piece together the event hours, days, weeks, years, etc after the event actually occurred.

As for Drum Corps, we have show reviews from posters on DCP, our own observations at shows, and also Fan Network live shows via computer networking to gauge audience responses of Corps shows. We are not simply restricted to our observations fron just reading poster's comments on DCP. We converse with lots of other people beyond DCP and we can gauge for ourselves what the general consensus is on a Corps shows from audiences around the country.

Edited May 8, 2012 by BRASSO

[MikeD]

Well, I believe that I've been to enough Drum Corps shows over the years, and talked to enough people during and after these shows to know how to differentiate between a " golf clap " reception and an enthusiastic reception from audiences of a Corps show . If you believe that the shows you have attended the BD show response from audiences were " excellent ", then either 1) the shows you attended were different than mine or 2) your audience gauge is entirely different than my own. I've seen BD over the years get everything from wildly enthusiastic audience receptions after shows, to very good response receptions, to essentially, polite golf claps for effort. My response does not always mirror the audience at the shows I attend either, but we're not talking about OUR response, but what we perceive to be the audience at large response. I would catergorize BD's show response a bit better on the whole in 2011 than in 2010, but still closer to the golf clap appreciation level than to the wildly enthusiastic receptions witnessed at earlier years BD shows... and not that far back ago either. If you believe that BD's show response of late by audiences to their shows is on par with earlier years shows, thats fine, but we'll just repectfully disagree on this observation, thats all.

Note that I said this:

When I see the BD each year, the reception they receive is always excellent. Might not be a rabid reaction in the sense of some other corps like Crown or the Cadets, but not tepid or showing some sort of dislike.

To me, that would be in your "very good response" area, and I stand by that. I made specfic note that the reactions were not of the "wildly enthusiastic" type, but IMO they were much better than a "golf clap".

BD does not design shows to generate the more visceral reactions of the Cadets, Crown, Scouts variety, and that IMO is fine. They do what they do...and do it very well for their fans. I don't want everyone to aim at the same thing.

[BRASSO]

Using DCP as an indicator of anything spanning the total audience is a non-starter. This is a tiny portion of the total drum corps crowd at shows. Vocal to be sure, but hardly evidence for what the 'majority of fans' think.

How can you say with certainty that DCP is not " what the majority of fans " think ?

I did not see Phantom Regiment Spartacus show at all. But DCP'ers told us the show was received enthusiastically at Finals. Were they unrepresentative of the audience ? Did they get it wrong ? Did Phantom get a golf clap at Finals, and the DCP'ers were a small group of people that were " hardly evidence " of the Phantom's Finals performance of Spartacus ? Just asking how the logic works here, thats all from those few here on DCP that apparently believe the majority of DCP'ers here are so apparently out of touch with what national audiences are thinking.

Edited May 8, 2012 by BRASSO