Does percussion affect Music Effect and Music Analysis scores?

[Stu]

...upstairs judges aren't going to be able to tell if diddles are fuzzy

Playing Devils Advocate here: Since the show is designed specifically for an audience in the stands and others upstairs, and the people in which the show is designed for cannot tell if a diddle is fuzzy or not (which really means it does not natter if a diddle is fuzzy or clean), then why place judges out on the field? I mean if ya cannot tell the difference in the stands what is the point?

[theCHEZman]

Just curious, shouldn't Crowns weakness in percussion be affecting their ME and MA scores?

It seems obvious that guard performance affects visual effect and visual analysis, shouldn't it be the same for percussion in relation the music captions?

That's because Cadets have a perceived "weaker" guard which pulls the whole Visual caption down but Crown's "perceived" percussion weakness has no effect on Music GE or MA. Just DCI's way of manipulating numbers and placements. (Personally, I think Crown should win and Cadets in second)

but seems their is cherry picking on how much a weaker section is to affect overall score and placement.

Edited August 7, 2013 by newjerseycorpguy

[Jeff Ream]

Playing Devils Advocate here: Since the show is designed specifically for an audience in the stands and others upstairs, and the people in which the show is designed for cannot tell if a diddle is fuzzy or not (which really means it does not natter if a diddle is fuzzy or clean), then why place judges out on the field? I mean if ya cannot tell the difference in the stands what is the point?

Because the DCI corps themselves recognize the importance of having people on the field to be able to dive in and get the nitty gritty aspects. In a case like Crown, the construction of the show percussively works very well upstairs....the ensemble holds together, and it helps drive the musical effects. It's why the percussion instructors continue to vote to have the judge on the field because they know you won't hear that stuff upstairs. You move the percussion judge upstairs and you basically get an MA read with heavy percussion emphasis.

You have the brass guy down there to check out issues a player may be having or a few players in the segment he is watching at that time.

the visual guy can point out inconsistencies between members that from the 600 level you maynot be able to see

it's why the sheets are designed as they are. the field sheets are designed to address field level issues. MA and VA for the ensemble, and the effects for effect. It's why the field guys don't make big picture comments and why upstairs doesn't make comments about little things.

[actucker]

I disagree with those that are arguing that Crown's percussion isn't affecting the bigger picture. Having seen the show a few times throughout the season, there have definitely been times when the lack of clarity in the battery was completely apparent from up top. You can bet money that an out of tune brass section would be called out on an MA tape. Why not an obviously dirty triplet roll?

I don't say any of this to slam Crown or their show. I just see a pretty obvious disparity in the numbers. Crown's percussion section is clearly not as strong as their brass, or as strong as the rest of the top 6 percussion sections. When its that apparent, there should be an effect on the MA scores.

[garfield]

when looking at MA, the issues Crown has at field level aren't really hurting it. Is the ensemble together? yes at least it was Saturday. On Ge, did percussion enhance the impacts? yes, atleast it did on Saturday.

On the field, was there clarity of articulation, uniformity between the players to the level required for a week before finals? No.

Crowns issues aren't big picture issues which is whatMA and GE are dealing with. Crown's issues are solely nuts and bolts at the field level. In a dome, with 80 brass, pits amped...upstairs judges aren't going to be able to tell if diddles are fuzzy

Wait. All due respect Mr. Drum Judge dude, but in another thread you proclaimed that Crown's problem is lack of integration with the corps and a comparitively simple book (Hannum's writing style) that were holding them back. Now you're saying it's execution at the field level?

How could that be? If Hannum's book is so simple (I disagree, and I watch sticks) wouldn't even a typical crown drum line be able to play it proficiently? After all, these are rookie players who just moved up from corps further down in the ranks. And, certainly, it can't be ALL of those.

I think NewJerseyCorpsGuy's description of "perceived" drum line weakness is dead on.

I actually hope you're right in that it IS their execution, because that's a lot easier to fix than Hannum's book.

[Stu]

Because the DCI corps themselves recognize the importance of having people on the field to be able to dive in and get the nitty gritty aspects. In a case like Crown, the construction of the show percussively works very well upstairs....the ensemble holds together, and it helps drive the musical effects. It's why the percussion instructors continue to vote to have the judge on the field because they know you won't hear that stuff upstairs. You move the percussion judge upstairs and you basically get an MA read with heavy percussion emphasis.

You have the brass guy down there to check out issues a player may be having or a few players in the segment he is watching at that time.

the visual guy can point out inconsistencies between members that from the 600 level you maynot be able to see

it's why the sheets are designed as they are. the field sheets are designed to address field level issues. MA and VA for the ensemble, and the effects for effect. It's why the field guys don't make big picture comments and why upstairs doesn't make comments about little things.

I agree; and this is similar to what happens at a car show which is judged. The paying public walks around looking a very cool and pristine cars and many might question as to why a certain car took home the top prize; however, what happened was that a judge not only critiques what the public can see on the outside but also judges how polished a bolt is on the backside of the clutch plate which will never be seen by the public. And while what can be seen by all is immaculate on one car, that typically unseen bolt could be the difference between a car owner taking home the prize money or going home with just the public praise.

[JerseyDCyanks]

Such a non-issue, Jeff is pretty spot on. Both judges are in the stands its as simple as that. The problem is with the battery on the field (mostly snares and bass) and the front ensemble for the stands sounds great or at least they did Saturday night when I saw them live.

[Jeff Ream]

I disagree with those that are arguing that Crown's percussion isn't affecting the bigger picture. Having seen the show a few times throughout the season, there have definitely been times when the lack of clarity in the battery was completely apparent from up top. You can bet money that an out of tune brass section would be called out on an MA tape. Why not an obviously dirty triplet roll?

I don't say any of this to slam Crown or their show. I just see a pretty obvious disparity in the numbers. Crown's percussion section is clearly not as strong as their brass, or as strong as the rest of the top 6 percussion sections. When its that apparent, there should be an effect on the MA scores.

again....a lot of it comes down to the background of who is judging MA.

[Jeff Ream]

Wait. All due respect Mr. Drum Judge dude, but in another thread you proclaimed that Crown's problem is lack of integration with the corps and a comparitively simple book (Hannum's writing style) that were holding them back. Now you're saying it's execution at the field level?

How could that be? If Hannum's book is so simple (I disagree, and I watch sticks) wouldn't even a typical crown drum line be able to play it proficiently? After all, these are rookie players who just moved up from corps further down in the ranks. And, certainly, it can't be ALL of those.

I think NewJerseyCorpsGuy's description of "perceived" drum line weakness is dead on.

I actually hope you're right in that it IS their execution, because that's a lot easier to fix than Hannum's book.

I saw it live up top...and yes, live it did come across as fitting the overall package better. I changed my opinion.

Simple has nothing to do with it...and yes, I looked at the sticks...you dont get points for trying something, and IMO, all of the constant hand motion changes do NOTHING to set the kids up for success. Remember, the sheets are based on the derived achievement method of adjudication......in order to gain maximum credit for content, achievement must be there. And with the gaps between content and performance, it's obvious until achievement happens, the bok numbers won't get love.

Now...is the book, per the field sheet, as hard as some others out there? No. Yeah, they have hefty physical and evironmental challenges, but so do most of the lines at the top. But after seeing it in rehearsal as well as live in the show, some of whats written will never get clean. it's written dirt. Sure it may help upstairs because the ensemble holds andit maximizes effect, but for the field sheet, clarity of articulation is a killer. several snares often times don't have the same consistent approach to the drums. If you want to be a top line in August, you don't blow the attack playing 8's in the lot.

Here's the big thing too.....numbers management. Music judges with a brass background willalmost always keep things tight. It's the old "don';t want to get yelled at" approach. You see it in DCA, BOA, TOB, etc.

Drum judges have balls, and aren't afraid to throw out a spread, and don't care about the total package or placement, they care about their sheet. You can see this in avariety of circuits as well. Look back to 2010...Phantom was what 6th overall? Going on in the middle of the show? And the percussion judge at finals went 99/98. he left some room yes, but Phantom was so ###### good based on the criteria, he gave em the love. You rarely even see a guard judge do that.

[JKT90]

I saw it live up top...and yes, live it did come across as fitting the overall package better. I changed my opinion.

Simple has nothing to do with it...and yes, I looked at the sticks...you dont get points for trying something, and IMO, all of the constant hand motion changes do NOTHING to set the kids up for success. Remember, the sheets are based on the derived achievement method of adjudication......in order to gain maximum credit for content, achievement must be there. And with the gaps between content and performance, it's obvious until achievement happens, the bok numbers won't get love.

Now...is the book, per the field sheet, as hard as some others out there? No. Yeah, they have hefty physical and evironmental challenges, but so do most of the lines at the top. But after seeing it in rehearsal as well as live in the show, some of whats written will never get clean. it's written dirt. Sure it may help upstairs because the ensemble holds andit maximizes effect, but for the field sheet, clarity of articulation is a killer. several snares often times don't have the same consistent approach to the drums. If you want to be a top line in August, you don't blow the attack playing 8's in the lot.

Here's the big thing too.....numbers management. Music judges with a brass background willalmost always keep things tight. It's the old "don';t want to get yelled at" approach. You see it in DCA, BOA, TOB, etc.

Drum judges have balls, and aren't afraid to throw out a spread, and don't care about the total package or placement, they care about their sheet. You can see this in avariety of circuits as well. Look back to 2010...Phantom was what 6th overall? Going on in the middle of the show? And the percussion judge at finals went 99/98. he left some room yes, but Phantom was so ###### good based on the criteria, he gave em the love. You rarely even see a guard judge do that.

I agree about drum judges (as an example, look how well Blue Stars are being ranked in drums)...but for the life of me, how do you blow attacks in the parking lot, in August, playing 8's? They do seem to have cleaned it about as well as they can.

Edited August 7, 2013 by JKT90