stop the corps folding

[Freedom]

This is what a lot of you guys sound like

[fsubone]

Someone here suggested that Crown spent $300,000 more to win in 2013. Can anyone find that post?

I'd like to know the source of this information considering Crown's 2012 990 is not out yet, let alone this year's.

I thought that was how much more they spent, mostly because they decided to travel out west for tour. That's not a cheap trip, which is also the reason that they picked up 4 extra shows during the early season. Not sure if it means that their trip led to their victory, but coming out west probably didn't hurt their chances. Saying they spent that much more to win sounds more like someone says they paid off the judges, which of course is ridiculous.

[oldtimefan]

Someone here suggested that Crown spent $300,000 more to win in 2013. Can anyone find that post?

I'd like to know the source of this information considering Crown's 2012 990 is not out yet, let alone this year's.

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not sure of info being accurate, but look at page 12 for the start of where the 300,000 number comes from.

[oldtimefan]

I thought that was how much more they spent, mostly because they decided to travel out west for tour. That's not a cheap trip, which is also the reason that they picked up 4 extra shows during the early season. Not sure if it means that their trip led to their victory, but coming out west probably didn't hurt their chances. Saying they spent that much more to win sounds more like someone says they paid off the judges, which of course is ridiculous.

I don't know that anyone is saying that, and for the record I am not now nor have I ever implied that any corps buys championships by paying judges. My only devils advocate point is that the more money you have the more access to everything a corps needs to get to the point of winning or even competing. A broke corps just can't compete. Is that a wrong statement?

[skywhopper]

Someone here suggested that Crown spent $300,000 more to win in 2013. Can anyone find that post?

I'd like to know the source of this information considering Crown's 2012 990 is not out yet, let alone this year's.

I found their 2012 990 at Guidestar. Compared to 2011, I compared page 2, line 4a on both. In 2011, they spent $987,318 on "Carolina Crown Drum and Bugle Corps", and in 2012 they spent $1,292,086.

I joked that their cube props must've been expensive. I didn't speculate on whether the extra money was required to win. And as you say, we have no idea what they spent this year.

Edited August 20, 2013 by skywhopper

[garfield]

I found their 2012 990 at Guidestar. Compared to 2011, I compared page 2, line 4a on both. In 2011, they spent $987,318 on "Carolina Crown Drum and Bugle Corps", and in 2012 they spent $1,292,086.

I joked that their cube props must've been expensive. I didn't speculate on whether the extra money was required to win. And as you say, we have no idea what they spent this year.

Ahh, your are wise Grasshopper (or Skywhopper). Of course Crown's 2012 990 is out - I even referenced it in an earlier post! Jeesh.

You are correct, their Program Expenses went up about $300,000 from 2011.

Interestingly, their allocation to Program Travel increased only about $40,000 from 2011.

What's really amazing is to see the change in Management and General Expenses from '11 to '12.

In 2011, of the $1,588,600 they had in total expenses, $498,262 was spent on M & G expenses (about 31%)

In 2012, of the $1,680,724, only $286,491, or about 17% was spend on M & G expenses.

Even though their total expenses increased by only about $92,000 in 2012, their reduction in non-show expenses allowed them to spend about $300,000 more to put the show on the field.

The lesson? Raise more money and cut your costs = Gold medal at finals. (Or something like that />)

(And I now see that it was not you, Skywhopper, who contended that they spend $300m more to "win" in 2012.)

Edited August 21, 2013 by garfield

[corpsband]

We can understand why ALL the other youth competitive sports team organizations world wide have adopted sensible and reasonable transfer policies in place between its membership teams.

Name me a singe youth activity where the participant spends $3000+ for a summer but has no absolutely no control over any aspect of their experience?

Your attempt to draw the parallel fails because drum corps is NOT a youth competitive sports team. It's far more akin to a summer arts camp (albeit a traveling summer arts camp) .

Now tell me the summer arts camp where kids spend $3000 and are assigned to one of 21 camps across the country, where the quality of instruction, facilities, equipment, programming, geographical location and member experience vary widely -- sometimes dramatically.

Nope -- your argument falls flat on it's face. Hmm... seems like drum corps just isn't a "youth competitive sport".

Edited August 21, 2013 by corpsband

[corpsband]

Given how many fouls, penalties, and imperfectly-refereed decisions take place en route to a "score" in those games, I think nothing would meet your definition of a "sport".

This is just disingenuous. It's night and day for the majority of the points scored in most sports. It goes in or it doesn't. Yes there are instant replays etc..now but the VAST majority of points are undisputed. There's not a single aspect of drum corps that is so black and white. Literally everything is shades of gray. It's music and dance performed athletically -- not athletics performed artistically.

[Pete Freedman]

Name me a singe youth activity where the participant spends $3000+ for a summer but has no absolutely no control over any aspect of their experience?

Your attempt to draw the parallel fails because drum corps is NOT a youth competitive sports team. It's far more akin to a summer arts camp (albeit a traveling summer arts camp) .

Now tell me the summer arts camp where kids spend $3000 and are assigned to one of 21 camps across the country, where the quality of instruction, facilities, equipment, programming, geographical location and member experience vary widely -- sometimes dramatically.

Nope -- your argument falls flat on it's face. Hmm... seems like drum corps just isn't a "youth competitive sport".

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but the clear answer is that NCAA sports qualify, since they have the transfer policies that Brasso is recommending. And the students pay an order of magnitude more to attend (granted, many are on scholarships). And, most significantly, the rules affect not only what team they play on, but what college they go to. That's a pretty draconian set of rules.

I think one difference however, is that the ball players have no choice but to submit to the NCAA's rules, because they all want to be pro ball players and that's the path that leads there.

DCI corps members, however, are not limited to DCI in any way. There are other ways they can spend their summer.

To put it another way, if there were several NCAAs for players to choose from, I bet none of them would be telling the kids they can't change colleges.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Pete Freedman

[Pete Freedman]

Thats because some Drum Corps circuits had sensible and reasonable transfers policies in place between member Corps in the Drum Corps circuit. Just like all similar amateur youth groups routinely do now... and have for over 50 years. It worked in Drum Corps too, as intended. Few parents complained. Few MM's felt restrained, nor constrained. Some were able to get around the transfer rules for sure, but it led to stability, to better competition, to better relations between Corps ( at least on this matter ). So we really don't have to guess here if reasonable and sensible ( and neccessary ) transfer rules between member Corps can work in Drum Corps to help add stability to an activity that is rife with instability right now and calling out for more stability across the board. We do know it can work. It has worked. We have examples of its working successfully in Drum Corps where and when it has been implemented. Its just a matter of the will to change, thats all.

First of all, please outline the actual policy you recommend. Otherwise the vagueness is underwhelming. If you are just going to repeat the same point over and over, at least put up something concrete to be criticized.

Thats because some Drum Corps circuits had sensible and reasonable transfers policies

...

We do know it can work. It has worked. We have examples of its working successfully in Drum Corps where and when it has been implemented.

In the Garden State Circuit it was said that there was a transfer policy. I don't know if there really was, but since those corps were all local it would only have affected a few people. Their mommas would have had to drive them a lot further to practice anyway. Different situation entirely.

And let's be honest, was the difference between those corps so great that many would have wanted to switch? Just sayin'. In circuits where there were no professional level units, transfer policies would be unlikely to be controversial. Different situation.

The benefits of being in Phantom or the Blue Devils are vastly greater than the benefits of being in the Cascades, or any drum corps in the Garden State Circuit.. Especially if you're actually seeking a career in the performing arts.

Finally, you keep claiming that these "reasonable and sensible" polices in other sports are not controversial, that nobody objects. That is not true:

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

http://www.sbnation....t-arizona-state

Both of these are from the first Google results page on "NCAA transfer rules"

But this one is the most telling:

http://www.cbssports...n-college-hoops

It says that the NCAA is removing transfer rules for students with a 2.6 GPA or higher. Why? Because "if 100 percent of transfers graduated, I don't think the NCAA would care about it. The NCAA is primarily concerned with the fact that transferring is generally a negative event academically," according to John Infante, "one of the most knowledgeable people out there when it comes to the ins and outs of its rules".

So transfers are fine as long as it doesn't mess up your grades in school. Different situation.