sagnasty Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 If we as fans believe the inevitability of placements would not judges have the same predictability? Thus scoring towards the inevitable outcome. For competition sake this makes the activity vanilla. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) If we as fans believe the inevitability of placements would not judges have the same predictability? Thus scoring towards the inevitable outcome. For competition sake this makes the activity vanilla. Possibly... but my sense of things is that these judges are simply judging whats before them, and not how the situation arrived there. I actually think the judges in the end get it mostly right, where the placements in the end fall about where they should, imo... within a placement position anyway. And thats about all we can realistically ask of them, imo Edited June 29, 2014 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard87 Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Slotting is not something that is a conspiracy... and there isn't anything nefariious, nor preplanned about it all. Its just that he environment is such that except for once every decade or so, if we use history as our guide, there is the inevitability about things. After last season's outlier, it looks like the Cadevaliers will once again assume their position at the top. Both Cadets and BD are undefeated and even though its still June, it appears that Crown won't be able to knock off BOTH of the Cadevaliers duo of the trifecta. But that's not "slotting" as the word is commonly used. People cry "slotting!" when Corps X, which historically beats Corps Y, beats Corps Y and in their opinion Corps Y should have beaten Corps X. It's that last part that separates "slotting" from mere "here we go again". Slotting means that the outcome is predetermined regardless of what happens on the field. Certain corps have institutional advantages and a history of success that begets more success, and while that may make things somewhat predictable, that's not "slotting" any more than Brazil beating Chile and the Netherlands beating Mexico in the World Cup is "slotting". In order for "slotting" to be a thing, two things have to be true: 1) the outcome is predictable, and 2) the outcome is wrong (and consistently in certain corps' favor). Show me evidence of the latter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) But that's not "slotting" as the word is commonly used. People cry "slotting!" when Corps X, which historically beats Corps Y, beats Corps Y and in their opinion Corps Y should have beaten Corps X. It's that last part that separates "slotting" from mere "here we go again". Slotting means that the outcome is predetermined regardless of what happens on the field. Certain corps have institutional advantages and a history of success that begets more success, and while that may make things somewhat predictable, that's not "slotting" any more than Brazil beating Chile and the Netherlands beating Mexico in the World Cup is "slotting". In order for "slotting" to be a thing, two things have to be true: 1) the outcome is predictable, and 2) the outcome is wrong (and consistently in certain corps' favor). Show me evidence of the latter. I do recognize that the phrase "slotting" can mean different things to different people. I think the people that believe that the the placements and scores are " predetermined " before the competition takes place ( if thats their definition of " slotting " ) are up in outer space with Major Tom with perhaps their oxygen cut off to their brain. These competitions arn't predetermined ( ie " fixed "). That said, one would be hard pressed to find any other competitive sport in the entire world where 3 teams have won over 80% of the Championships the last 35 years.. Thus, its easy to predict placements for all 25 Corps each summer, within a placement position or two, even when we don't know much of anything at all about all these Corps in the offseason. Edited June 30, 2014 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Hey look some corps trading wins over each other in June! Slotting I tell you! Or... Not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 But that's not "slotting" as the word is commonly used. People cry "slotting!" when Corps X, which historically beats Corps Y, beats Corps Y and in their opinion Corps Y should have beaten Corps X. It's that last part that separates "slotting" from mere "here we go again". Slotting means that the outcome is predetermined regardless of what happens on the field. Certain corps have institutional advantages and a history of success that begets more success, and while that may make things somewhat predictable, that's not "slotting" any more than Brazil beating Chile and the Netherlands beating Mexico in the World Cup is "slotting". In order for "slotting" to be a thing, two things have to be true: 1) the outcome is predictable, and 2) the outcome is wrong (and consistently in certain corps' favor). Show me evidence of the latter. Your explanation is good. I will add that true drum corps enthusiasts often cry slotting with captions as well. Those of us who know the judging system quite well often get upset when Corps A is placing 4th or 5th at most major shows (when competing head-on with all the corps in their division) and somehow all their captions begin to fall into the 4th or 5th slot as well. Occasionally we see a 6th-place corps win high drums (like Phantom a few years back), but too often it's odd when captions and sub-captions a begin to line up. Short of the Blue Devils-Cadets-Crown trilogy, not many drum corps are that consistent from caption to caption. Even the top 3 have their weaknesses from year to year. I, too, think the judges get it mostly right. I support the work they do. Incredibly difficult job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Your explanation is good. I will add that true drum corps enthusiasts often cry slotting with captions as well. Those of us who know the judging system quite well often get upset when Corps A is placing 4th or 5th at most major shows (when competing head-on with all the corps in their division) and somehow all their captions begin to fall into the 4th or 5th slot as well. Occasionally we see a 6th-place corps win high drums (like Phantom a few years back), but too often it's odd when captions and sub-captions a begin to line up. Short of the Blue Devils-Cadets-Crown trilogy, not many drum corps are that consistent from caption to caption. Even the top 3 have their weaknesses from year to year. I, too, think the judges get it mostly right. I support the work they do. Incredibly difficult job. Yes, captions tend to " be consistent from caption to caption ". A modern day DCI Corps can win a DCI title if their Percussion playing is 6th, but probably impossible if their Percussion playing was 1st or 2nd, but their Guard or any of the Visual captions were 6th. It speaks to how important the Show Design, especially the non musical playing of the Guard and the Visual is today in the placements. As for " consistency in captions", its rare now that Corps have much of a disparity of more than 6 placement positions in their scoring at Championships. We had Corps with MUCH wider swings in Corps sections placements in the past. In 1977, The Oakland De La Salle Crusaders won Percussion in DCI Prelims Championships. They swept all 6 Percussion subcaptions with the 2 Percussion judges to win Percussion. But they never got a chance to show off their great Percussion line in '77 at Finals, and its lost forever, as no record appears of that Percussion line performance of them from that year. This is because despite winning Percussion, they finished 21st in Marching, 22nd in Music Analysis, 13th in Brass to finish 15th in Prelims, and out of making Finals They had a 22 position caption change difference between their Percussion caption and Musical Analysis caption. Could a Corps have a 22 caption placement difference between( say ) Percussion and Music Analysis today ? No. Thats impossible, imo. It would also be impossible to even see a 11 placement position difference. 7 or 8 is probably the modern day limit. I actually think that some captions today get pushed up a bit than perhaps they might otherwise get, but thats just speculation. But my "77 example is a good example of how things have changed in judging, as in my opinion it would be impossible for a Corps today to win a caption in the prelims, yet fail to make Finals, Edited July 1, 2014 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 In 1977, The Oakland De La Salle Crusaders won Percussion in DCI Prelims Championships. They swept all 6 Percussion subcaptions with the 2 Percussion judges to win Percussion. But they never got a chance to show off their great Percussion line in '77 at Finals, and its lost forever, as no record appears of that Percussion line performance of them from that year. This is because despite winning Percussion, they finished 21st in Marching, 22nd in Music Analysis, 13th in Brass to finish 15th in Prelims, and out of making Finals They had a 22 position caption change difference between their Percussion caption and Musical Analysis caption. Could a Corps have a 22 caption placement difference between( say ) Percussion and Music Analysis today ? No. Thats impossible, imo. Firstly, I absolutely agree. You won't see swings that big - modern judges (apart from Perc Performance, who are their own animals) wouldn't dare. Second, though, and I mean just in general - 1977 was 37 years ago. That's like, in '77, Oakland referring to something that happened in the 1940 AL Finals. At some point, I'm not sure how relevant history really is to current DCI. Sorry Brasso - wasn't trying to call you out on that - it's been on my mind for a while in reading on here. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Firstly, I absolutely agree. You won't see swings that big - modern judges (apart from Perc Performance, who are their own animals) wouldn't dare. Second, though, and I mean just in general - 1977 was 37 years ago. That's like, in '77, Oakland referring to something that happened in the 1940 AL Finals. At some point, I'm not sure how relevant history really is to current DCI. Sorry Brasso - wasn't trying to call you out on that - it's been on my mind for a while in reading on here. Mike nm Edited July 1, 2014 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Firstly, I absolutely agree. You won't see swings that big - modern judges (apart from Perc Performance, who are their own animals) wouldn't dare. Second, though, and I mean just in general - 1977 was 37 years ago. That's like, in '77, Oakland referring to something that happened in the 1940 AL Finals. At some point, I'm not sure how relevant history really is to current DCI. Sorry Brasso - wasn't trying to call you out on that - it's been on my mind for a while in reading on here. Mike I agree 37 years ago is a long ntime ago, and lots of changes have taken place, including a complete redo of the captions, where its a build up system today as opposed to the tic system.( still, some things never seem to change.. The Cadevaliers have won over 80% of the DCI Titles since this year here of 1977, and I suspect will win over 80% of the coming DCI Titles over the next 37 years too. ) Edited July 2, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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