Nuts4DC

16-22 Corps - Adjust your rear view mirrors!

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I would not do away with Open Class. However, I would argue that some Open Class corps do not belong in Open Class, Blue Devils B and SCV Cadets coming to mind.

While both Open Class and World Class offer the drum corps experience, and participants in both may be as dedicated, Open Class caters to younger marching members, some of whom may not be ready for the experience a WC corps could offer, it can be a more affordable option, and OC may better fit schedules. As a separate category, it is easier for a corps to focus and improve. Most OC corps will not beat WC corps, though as some mentioned, some do fare better in Indy than some of the WC corps. For example it's highly unlikely that Racine Scouts will defeat Madison Scouts this year, and attempting it would be all but futile. Colt Cadets are not going to fare better than Colts. But when judged against Colt Cadets, Racine Scouts could plan a reasonable improvement schedule.

Having a separate WC and Open Class in my mind assures better competitive opportunities for both. The OC corps are likely to win some shows and make steady improvement for most of the season and in Indy are able to face the WC corps and see how they fare. With Open Class, we have a chance of growing drum corps. Without it, I think we'd lose many of the corps we already have.

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...

I think we need a new drop down selection in the DCP Caption Ranking that merges both World & Open, since both classes are now on the same sheets and judges are ranking them fairly now and into final week in Indianapolis would nice to see how they stack up with eachother.

I've just added a new option to the Division selection on the DCP Caption Ranking page to allow you to see a combined list of World + Open Class corps. The option is only available for 2013 and forward.

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/stats-captions/

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However, I would argue that some Open Class corps do not belong in Open Class, Blue Devils B and Vanguard Cadets coming to mind.

I think it's perfectly natural that Open Class, like World Class, will have some corps who regularly compete for the title, some who occasionally compete for the title, some who regularly sit in the middle of the pack, and some who typically get the lowest scores--allowing always for the possibility of exceptions. The current dominance of BDB and SCVC in Open Class, with those two corps winning five of six titles since 2008, may yet prove to be a historical anomaly. One significant reason for it may be that as the cadet corps of two of the financially-strongest DCI members, they were in better shape to weather the Great Recession (which in unemployment terms only ended a couple months ago; this may be where garfield chimes in to show that O.C. corps financial statements argue otherwise). Although both have long been strong lower-division corps, they only began regularly traveling to championships in the past decade, and prior to the current run, I think BDB had never won and SCVC had only won once.

And I think it's entirely reasonable that the bottom of one division overlaps in quality with the top of another. Looking back at say, 1989, I see the Class A champion Ventures finished ahead of a couple World Class corps in Quarterfinals.

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Will Open Class corps be penalized for shows that run short? Right now, 7th Regiment, the Open Class corps in the lead, whose most recent score is higher than that of five World Class corps, Mandarins, Academy, Pacific Crest, Pioneer, or Cascades, have a show that only runs about 9 min. 30 sec. Pioneer's show runs about 11 min. I don't think anyone is being penalized for times right now (are they?), but later in the season, I believe W.C. corps will be marked down for shows that don't run between 10 min. and 11 min. 30 sec.--is that right? Looking at 7th's show last year, it seems to have run 9 min. 45 sec. Similarly Genesis's show seems to have been just shy of 10 min. last year. Since O.C. corps are now on W.C. sheets, are they subject to the same penalties? Were they before?

Open Class corps are allowed to do a shorter program

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Perhaps a better solution would be to stop the foolishness of all corps on one set of sheets. The Open Class paradigm worked well for years. Were it not for the Chief Judge and Artistic Director shoving this change down the throats of the OC Directors last Winter, we'd never be discussing eliminating the Open Class. Does it really make sense to evaluate the Blue Saints vs The Blue Devils?

That's interesting. When it was announced that one set of sheets would be used this year, it was presented as the desire of the Open Class corps. Why did DCI's leadership push for this change? And what was/is the "Open Class paradigm", anyway? When the new sheets were made available, it appeared that the only difference between them was that the O.C. sheets referred to the "Open Class paradigm" but never defined it. In an earlier year, I think Kamarag wrote on these forums that O.C. corps were judged strictly on execution, not difficulty--is that the O.C. paradigm?

Even the corps with the most outward aspiration to move to the World Class has had issues, and had the single sheet concept blow up in their face! The public rant on Facebook (now deleted) by the Director of Genesis showed his true colors... not a good representation of the Open Class or Drum Corps in general.

Wait! What? Can you tell us approximately what he wrote? How did the sheet blow up in Genesis's face? They've scored quite well as compared to other O.C. corps this year: they're solidly in the top grouping. And do they really aspire to World Class? Last fall, Genesis's director told Drum Corps World that Genesis had no such aspirations.

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Why don't you ask him? Or the members of their Fan page on Facebook who were subject to an expletive filled tirade regarding their scores so far?

Evidently reaction was sting as it was pulled later that day.

Peace & Love,

3rd & 10

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Well then the Open Class corps would have to be paid appearance fees commensurate with the lower tier of World Class. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Perhaps a better solution would be to stop the foolishness of all corps on one set of sheets. The Open Class paradigm worked well for years. Were it not for the Chief Judge and Artistic Director shoving this change down the throats of the OC Directors last Winter, we'd never be discussing eliminating the Open Class. Does it really make sense to evaluate the Blue Saints vs The Blue Devils?

Even the corps with the most outward aspiration to move to the World Class has had issues and had the single sheet concept blow up in the their face! The public rant on Facebook (now deleted) by the Director of Genesis showed his true colors.......not a good representation of the Open Class or Drum Corps in general.

I am not sure I need to take the time to respond to this, however I will.

Below is the ONE and ONLY message I have posted (and never deleted) in regard to this seasons scoring. It was posted to our Parent and Booster Facebook page in order to reflect and answer questions on why the scoring seems unfair to them and why our scoring system is different this season. It has no expletives (I have never used foul language in public) and is not a tirade of any magnitude. Those of you who wish to speak to me directly about your perceptions and clear untruths about any post I chose to place online can do so...I am happy to discuss them with you at 512.538.4023. I am an advocate for the National Linear scoring sheet and was one of many who wanted to see this happen. Nothing has blown up in anyones face and, to the topic of World Class aspiration...We get up everyday and do drum corps...you folks can determine what is World Class or not, we will just work to be the best we can if that is ok with you.

If you can show me this "tirade" full of "expletives" then I would be happy to answer to that, however I am sure if I had done this, it would have been a bigger deal than a discussion on this board. I hope you are all enjoying your air-conditioned seats and online fun.

Facebook Post:

Scoring: Kinda sucks! With that said, I wanted to shed a little light on how scoring works because it is new this season. For the past 20 years Open Class has been judged on a curve and a paradigm, taking in to account shorter season, younger members, smaller budgets, etc. What would be a 60 today has been a 70 in the past. Myself and a few others worked very hard over the winter to push for all corps to be judged equally and on the same scale in order to both improve the quality of our class and help our kids understand their true potential. Having said that, the training of judges over the winter has come up short and we are still being judged as an "Open Class" instead of on a true scale. As with anything, a shift of this magnitude will take some time to adapt and catch up. Our program has really shocked the judging community this season and our time with the judges after the show has been productive. We hope things begin to even out as the season progresses. I hope this helps you guys understand a little bit about how and what has been going on out here in the Midwest.

We are so anxious to get back to Texas....this has been an amazing journey so far but we are ready for some familiar faces.

Chris Magonigal

Executive Director

Genesis DBC, Inc.

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I am not sure I need to take the time to respond to this, however I will.

Below is the ONE and ONLY message I have posted (and never deleted) in regard to this seasons scoring. It was posted to our Parent and Booster Facebook page in order to reflect and answer questions on why the scoring seems unfair to them and why our scoring system is different this season. It has no expletives (I have never used foul language in public) and is not a tirade of any magnitude. Those of you who wish to speak to me directly about your perceptions and clear untruths about any post I chose to place online can do so... I am happy to discuss them with you at 512.538.4023. I am an advocate for the National Linear scoring sheet and was one of many who wanted to see this happen. Nothing has blown up in anyone's face, and, to the topic of World Class aspiration... We get up everyday and do drum corps... you folks can determine what is World Class or not, we will just work to be the best we can, if that is OK with you.

If you can show me this "tirade" full of "expletives" then I would be happy to answer to that, however I am sure if I had done this, it would have been a bigger deal than a discussion on this board. I hope you are all enjoying your air-conditioned seats and online fun.

Facebook Post:

Scoring: Kinda sucks! With that said, I wanted to shed a little light on how scoring works because it is new this season. For the past 20 years Open Class has been judged on a curve and a paradigm, taking in to account shorter season, younger members, smaller budgets, etc. What would be a 60 today has been a 70 in the past. Myself and a few others worked very hard over the winter to push for all corps to be judged equally and on the same scale in order to both improve the quality of our class and help our kids understand their true potential. Having said that, the training of judges over the winter has come up short and we are still being judged as an "Open Class" instead of on a true scale. As with anything, a shift of this magnitude will take some time to adapt and catch up. Our program has really shocked the judging community this season and our time with the judges after the show has been productive. We hope things begin to even out as the season progresses. I hope this helps you guys understand a little bit about how and what has been going on out here in the Midwest.

We are so anxious to get back to Texas....this has been an amazing journey so far but we are ready for some familiar faces.

Chris Magonigal

Executive Director

Genesis DBC, Inc.

Thanks for taking the time to post that information here! That's most interesting. I had never heard of the National Linear scoring system and shall have to look it up. I do wonder about the conversion scale you mention: that "What would be a 60 today has been a 70 in the past". Over the past three years, during which time, as you know, the Open Class corps have appeared in World Class Prelims, they've seen their scores drop about 17-20 points from what they had earned at Open Class Finals. (I'm sure you remember, but for others reading this: Genesis dropped from 91.55 in Michigan City to 73.75 in Indianapolis two days later.) At Genesis's first show last year, on July 16, you scored a 71.55 on the Open Class sheets. Assuming the same differential of 17.80, that would have worked out to a World Class score of 53.75. And yet here you are with a 62.40 earned July 8.

Eight days earlier, 8.65 points higher than last year. That's very impressive! And what's more, you had already improved nearly five points in five days. Maybe your friends and family would appreciate seeing the numbers broken down that way.

In any case, best of luck for this season! I hope it doesn't jinx things to say so, but in DCP's season prediction thread, back in January, I picked Genesis to win Open Class this year, so I'm not just being polite in wishing you the best.

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One further aspect of the unexpected (and welcome) contribution by Chris Magonical, director of Genesis, is a hint at the ever-thorny question of how DCP is perceived in other circles.

I have a friend who is not on Facebook. He has long thought of that site as a force for harm. (After seeing saw The Social Network, he wrote on his blog: "Why did I bother to watch this? I already knew that Mark Zuckerberg was evil.") He might say that simply by virtue of posting to Facebook, Mr. Magonical was participating in a "cesspool"--I choose that term advisedly, as it is a term that several people have used in these forums to describe DCP's reputation among drum corps folk who don't participate here. And regardless of whether Facebook as a whole is detrimental to society, surely vile things happen there, as they do everywhere on the internet. And yet while you don't see comments on DCP about how drum corps fans should stay away from Facebook, apparently that is said in drum corps circles (perhaps even on Facebook?) about DCP.

But why is that? In this thread, whose central theme was praise for the achievement of Open Class corps, some of which are doing so well as to suggest, to some people, that they ought to be competing in World Class, one respondent apparently mis-characterized, either accidentally or willfully I don't know, something Mr. Magonical posted to Facebook. In the response that Mr. Magonical provided, though, I think I detect a whiff of disgust at the whole DCP enterprise, not just that one person: "I hope you are all enjoying your air-conditioned seats and online fun"--even though several people in this forum have seen Genesis live, or hope to do so (I'm going to Michigan City for Open Class Finals, myself)--and "you folks can determine what is World Class or not; we will just work to be the best we can, if that is OK with you"--but I think everyone here hopes the best for Genesis, and one person aside, all references to W.C. in this discussion were about how good the O.C. corps are.

Am I misreading him? (In which case, I apologize.) Or if not, what is it about DCP that leads to the brush being applied so broadly? I don't mean in this case, particularly. As a corps director in the rush of the summer tour, it's completely understandable that he doesn't have time to get a proper sense of what happens here. I mean generally: what is it that the drum corps public, insofar as they've heard of DCP at all, believes to happen here? What is it that they think should happen here that isn't?

The only thing that I can guess is that some people believe there should never be any criticism of their corps. Which if true seems ridiculous to me. (Is it?) But that is just a guess.

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