Transposition from G horns to Bb/F horns?

[theyremovingit]

I have always wondered what the transposition from G horns to Bb/F horns and what the difference in range are. Madison Scouts' '88 rendition of Malaguena got me asking this as the mellophones screamed high concert Ab's at the end which, from an F tuned mellphone player's perspective, is CRAZY!

Could anybody enlighten me about the range differences and transposition between G and Bb/F Horns?

Thanks

[frachel]

G's are down a minor 3rd (so play a middle C on the G its an A on a Bb). I used to have to practice that way when there weren't enough G's to take home - just hold down the 3rd valve the whole time on the trumpet and its the same as a G bugle (though tough to keep in tune lol).

I can only speak to Soprano/Trumpet, but there really aren't any range differences, just they'd be different notes for their respective keys.. so if you are playing a G above high C on the trumpet (a common high note for the screamers to do nowadays) you would have been playing a Bb on the soprano. The only real range difference that occurred during my days would have been not really going below E on the soprano since a lot of notes below that you couldn't do without the 3rd valve (D, C#, Ab, etc)

Personally I think there are are a few more screamers in the top sections nowadays (though not many screaming solos). Heck, one guy who's audition vid for BD is on YouTube and he's doing a 2 octave G scale (to a G above high C) and its strong and clear as a bell. And he didn't make it at first (but later did). So I imagine most of the section can pop those out..

(oops, said third instead of minor 3rd)

Edited November 17, 2014 by frachel

[Brad T.]

G vs Bb is in fact a minor 3rd lower. From a high brass standpoint this allows less seasoned players to more easily scream high notes. There's a mathematical science to it that deals with the harmonics of the horn and all that, which I'm not really all that sure about.

From G to F is actually a major 2nd higher. G mellophones and G sopranos have the same amount of tubing and therefore the same partials and theoretical range. In a G corps, there really isn't a true soprano voice since the G soprano is closer in tube length to an Alto trumpet than a soprano trumpet. That's why most soprano parts are written and performed quite high. This is also why G mellophone parts seem to soar above some soprano sections.

From a low brass standpoint, the baritone voice is usually arranged higher than a traditional baritone part to keep the voicing from getting to close to the contras. Also, both the G baritone and G Euphonium are only a major 2nd higher in pitch than an F tuba. This allows the Euphonium especially to take on a voice of its own as either a Contra double, solo voice, or whatever the case may be. The GG contrabass isn't technically a member of the tuba family (not having descended from the Saxhorn line of chromatic instruments) but for arranging purposes, it is the lowest pitched brass instrument in mass production. A three valve contrabass has a usable range down to Db1 if you are familiar with the musical number notation. The less familiar 4 valve GG contrabass has a usable range to A0 (both of these are discounting pedals and false tones which not all players can do). Keep in mind a standard 3 valve Bb tuba can play down to E1 and a 4 valve can play to C1 (also omitting pedals and false tones). This gives a chromatic G bugle horn line an average potential range from D1 to D6 or more.

[Tapper7]

I have always wondered what the transposition from G horns to Bb/F horns and what the difference in range are. Madison Scouts' '88 rendition of Malaguena got me asking this as the mellophones screamed high concert Ab's at the end which, from an F tuned mellphone player's perspective, is CRAZY!

Could anybody enlighten me about the range differences and transposition between G and Bb/F Horns?

Thanks

There is no diff. A G Bugle is a minor 3rd LOWER than it's corresponding Bb horn.

Whatever you are capable of on ur Mello in F is going to be the same in G. actually you may lose 1 partial moving to a G

Bugle Mellophone from one in F as G is a major 2nd higher. I think your brain will auto-"make up for that"

and set you up for that extra partial in the upper register. Going from a Bb horn to a G bugle is MUCH easier and how

most of us progressed in the era you speak of. We just had to retrain our ears ...

(If you hear a concert Bb in your head when you see it on the page, not knowing that a G is what comes out

is an auto-frack...dissonance between your head/buzz/the actual sound. It's like shifting gears, but mentally, FROM Bb TO G.

So when I play a "C" on a G Bugle...it's a concert G.

Likewise when I play a "C" on Bb earthworm-shooter, it's a concert Bb.

It feels like I can play higher on a G Bugle because it's A LOWER NOTE COMING OUT THAN WHAT IS WRITTEN, though usually played on the same partial, requiring the equivalence in AIR and BUZZ. The "easy-feeling" only matters in the upper-register, when partials begin to collapse closer. The E above high C is UGFL on most brass instruments, on a G Bugle, it's only a half-step above a high (concert) C.

A talented 6th grader could paste that - loud AND in-tune, why not right?

Take a "double G" That's a concert D played on the "double-G" partial, so it sounds higher and more bad-###, even though it's just a 3rd above a (concert) high-C.

To transpose: Know where you're going from/to. I often transpose music I like for G Bugles....so I start by figuring out the concert pitches.

Say the 1st note is a concert D. In C Treble, that's the middle line=B (E-G-B-D-F), right? In Bb Treble for G Bugle, it's written on the 2nd line: a "G."

In bass clef, the first note (if we 8vb) is written on the 4th line "F" - the SAME NOTE would be 2 lines above the staff.

G bugles make the keys of Cmaj, Cmin, Amaj, Amin9, F#Maj/min, F7, Fmaj/min and obviously all G scales and chords especially accessible.

(C major is the concert Eb or "F" scale...the "mostly 1 and open scale"...they were designed that way because C and G...sonically carry much farther, making them of great use for military communications before amplitude and frequency modulation).

On a hot, humid, summer day in Kansas I could here Garfield going thru their show, vaguely, like a tinny radio was playing softly. At the show some of my buds came up and said "We could here you guys (SCV) today" When I said I could hear them too we checked a map. campsites were 7 miles apart.

Bb sure is "more musical," but scientifically, a G-line is louder-my main issue with drum corps in Bb.

sorry im going OT.

To transpose my concert D (the G on my G Bugle) for a horn in F. ...

Logically, an F horn's Treble clef Cmaj scale emulates an Fmaj scale, so D is the 6th,

"A" is the 6th of Cmaj so the 2nd space up (F-A-C-E).

Therefore we transpose UP a major 6th. Consider using Audition if it sounds like I'm speaking a Swahili dialect.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Tapper7

[HornsUp]

I'm gonna make this real easy:

When an X instrument plays a Y, a Y instrument plays an X. This works for any transposition. (Remember that bass clef brass read as C instruments.)

Applying this to band instrument vs. bugle:

When a G instrument plays their Bb, a Bb instrument plays their G to sound the same pitch.