ShutUpAndPlayYerGuitar Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) The truth is, all of the active manufacturers make a good product. None are without fault, but they are all several orders of magnitude better than what was offered in the past, save maybe the King K-bugle line. Any time someone says, "Manufacturer X is crap" about today's horns, I immediately think of Hitchens's razor. I still need to get my hands on the latest models of King/SB, Kanstul, Adams, and Jupiter to really form a well-developed opinion. Was (and still am) a Yamaha fan-boy, but your criticism of the lead-pipe is legit. Had no idea King/SB had the underhand lead-pipe until recently. Marched a year on the King 1141, and just recently taught a group that was still using them (poor basterds). Terrible, terrible, terrible design. Nice sound ... but a cumbersome piece of garbage that creates tension in the performer. Just looking at it creates tension. EDIT: ok, my language is pretty harsh ... again, it sounds good. I just don't miss that design. Going from that to Yamaha was serenity. Edited August 25, 2015 by ShutUpAndPlayYerGuitar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) Oh I forgot, since I'm not a college educated musician, clinician, and whatever other useless paper or titles you consider to be successful, that my opinion means nothing to you. God forbid someone tells you something you don't like. Who made you the all-important master of being good at trash talking others on a message board? I'd love to know your supposed educational exploits that make your opinion of specific brass so much better and qualified than mine. Until then, I'm thoroughly unimpressed with your lazy drivel about "I'm better than you because XYZ" Edited August 26, 2015 by Brad T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShutUpAndPlayYerGuitar Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Who made you the all-important master of being good at trash talking others on a message board? You did ... when you labelled something that a lot of people have experienced with great success as "complete rubbish" and left it at that. If you choose to take it personally, that's your thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Oh I forgot, since I'm not a college educated musician, clinician, and whatever other useless paper or titles you consider to be successful, that my opinion means nothing to you. God forbid someone tells you something you don't like. Who made you the all-important master of being good at trash talking others on a message board? I'd love to know your supposed educational exploits that make your opinion of specific brass so much better and qualified than mine. Until then, I'm thoroughly unimpressed with your lazy drivel about "I'm better than you because XYZ" “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad T. Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 You did ... when you labelled something that a lot of people have experienced with great success as "complete rubbish" and left it at that. If you choose to take it personally, that's your thing. Why did I leave it at that? Because as soon as someone tries to explain why they don't like Yamaha, they are dismissed as clueless amateurs who know nothing. So I allowed all of you rabid Yamaha fangirls the pleasure of bashing me with less work on my end. I've played plenty of Yamaha horns, and hated every last one of them. They have no response, no sonority, and simply feel like the shoddy workmanship they actually are. If I ran a horn line and someone donated a whole line of Yamahas to me, I'd either sell them and buy something better or just refuse the donation. The same goes with Jupiter. Give me something American made any day. King or Kanstul, there's no other way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 ..................Give me something American made any day. King or Kanstul, there's no other way to go. Okay................ http://kanstul.net/category.php?category_search=Bugle&metaPage=Bugle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShutUpAndPlayYerGuitar Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Why did I leave it at that? Because as soon as someone tries to explain why they don't like Yamaha, they are dismissed as clueless amateurs who know nothing. So I allowed all of you rabid Yamaha fangirls the pleasure of bashing me with less work on my end. I've played plenty of Yamaha horns, and hated every last one of them. They have no response, no sonority, and simply feel like the shoddy workmanship they actually are. If I ran a horn line and someone donated a whole line of Yamahas to me, I'd either sell them and buy something better or just refuse the donation. The same goes with Jupiter. Give me something American made any day. King or Kanstul, there's no other way to go. So ... disagreeing with your hyperbole makes me a "rabid fangirl." Got it. I'll just say my experience with Yamaha has been different. Two groups I help with have survived 10 years of "shoddy workmanship." The horns are sturdier than people give credit for and they have good resale value. With decent instruction, you can get a championship sound out of them (at any level). I've weighed the costs and benefits, and Yamaha has worked out great. If you want something with better response and sonority, that's fine. Pay up. (and before you take anything I've said personally again ... I'm not saying any one product is superior to another. Just saying my experience has been positive.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Interesting conversation regarding Yamaha. My personal instrument is a 321S Euphonium I acquired in 1976 and have had solid success with at the HS, Collegiate, and Pro levels. I've never had to have any work on the instrument. It's built like a truck. Other pros like them as well. They're very honest, play easy, and easy to get around the issues that they have if you listen to what comes out the bell. That being said, I have talked to two other serious Euphonium players who also have marched DCA, teach, etc. who have had some issues with the newer ones off the assembly line. Granted, they're concert instruments, but there seem to be some issues with some of the construction. I have one of the first 2000 built. I've seen serials well over 30k. Recent ones appear to have nylon valve guides rather then the intricately machined metal ones mine are fitted with, for instance. Mine show no real signs of wear. There are concerns with the nylon wearing and snapping on the newer ones. There seems to be concerns with metal gauge thickness as compared to mine. Some of the accessories and bracings appear to have been made less robust to save on cost. As for the marching instruments- from what I've seen and observed, the Trumpets are well regarded. Tubas seem to be fine if looked after and not treated badly- but I think one can say that about any Tuba. Some of the Baris I've seen use a Euphonium shank- which leaves me apprehensive. They seem to be a bit too spread on the lower end of the instrument and not as focused and agile as I'd personally like if I were to play one for keeps but I've heard they've worked on correcting those issues. Usually, when people complain to Yamaha, they do eventually listen and respond. The Kanstul concert Euphonium I played on a few years back was well made and I thought a pretty nice instrument. Also a very good value. Some say different, but I was able to get around on it fine. I use a Kanstul G bari for Alumni work. Not bad- but it does have some foibles. It demands a lot out of you- and if you're not ready to boss it around- it'll eat you alive if your technique is weak. It's not very user-friendly unless you've got your act together. I think part of the discussion here that seems to be also personal likes/dislikes on their specific instrument. I do know over time with some of these lines of instruments that some of the instruments are very good from a given company and some of them aren't as strong as the rest of the family. It's another thing one has to think about. I do know after talking to folks about Jupiter that they've evidently taken all of the criticism to heart and really tried to improve their instruments. Talked to some of the Blue Stars LB players a couple of years ago and evidently there were Jupiter field reps involved and attentive, and at least one of their tubas had some obvious field mods done by a professional in response to one of the issues, which was very inadequate bracing and stiffening on the part that rested on the shoulder. Really, it all may break down to which company's done the most recently to address their issues, develop and improve their brand. It may also be cost as well for the buyer. I do think that what you'd really have to do is get in some good folks on every instrument, play them all, sit, discuss, and figure out what one would be the best value and gives the most players the best horns. More food for thought: Would it be heresy to choose to buy mostly one brand and not like say, their Tubas and get another brand that the staff thinks is better? John? I'm curious on that. I'd *think* as long as the sections are playing on the same instrument, it may not matter as much whether a different brand would be chosen for another section or sections. I frankly don't know the answer. Educate me! Personally, before I start cracking about an instrument, I like to play on one of them for a bit of time and figure them out before I start damning or praising them. I've dropped some hints to a couple of folks in some corps that I'd bring my own mouthpiece if they'd lend me one for 15 minutes so I could make up my own mind... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Mouthpieces are the actual instruments, the horns are simply the amplifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Mouthpieces are the actual instruments, the horns are simply the amplifiers. Truth there. A good mouthpiece can make a garden hose with a funnel duct taped to it work. Seen it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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