The World's First and Only Bb Soprano Bugle

[corpsband]

10 minutes ago, shofmon88 said:

That isn't really quality control, that's consistency. There's the occasional Yamaha horn with a bad valve, or a dodgy spring, or what have you. THAT is quality control. Producing an instrument that sounds the same one from the next is consistency. Precision. 

 

I'm also not arguing that the initial switch to Bb/F was due to teaching methods or the Internet (it was due to financial incentives) or that Bb/F lines aren't inherently more in tune. I'm arguing that there's more to the picture than just the Bb/F switch for more groups, and those of lower placement, playing with better intonation. This is a recent phenomenon; a decade after the initial switch is when things started to arguably be noticeably better for lower placing groups.

quality control is ALL about consistency has nothing to do with "high quality".   you can have excellent quality control of a low performing product.  QC is about the control -- nothing to do with excellence of the product.

is there more to the big picture than just the switch? perhaps but i thinks it's biggest factor.  not the only one -- but the one with most impact.

the internet improving quality -- perhaps that's taking place as we speak. i don't think it's truly been going long enough to make a significant impact across all of the corps.

as for instructor quality improving -- present your evidence.  i suspect that instructors in the past were just as good as those today.  in fact i suspect that they may have been better (they were working with a more "raw" incoming MM).  

Edited January 18, 2017 by corpsband

[corpsband]

9 minutes ago, Liahona said:

YES!

This conversation is supposed to be about B-flat sopranos...not G bugles...

it's about low volume bugles vs band instrument trumpets .  i disagree. 

(and perhaps you simply meant "off topic"  but not "specious"  )

Edited January 18, 2017 by corpsband

[Liahona]

14 minutes ago, shofmon88 said:

So, Bb sopranos. 

I'd to see a 2 valve Bb soprano, just because. It would be freer blowing, right? Perfect for a lead player who never needs the 3rd valve anyway. 

That would be a weird instrument, and I love weird instruments. 

[shofmon88]

4 minutes ago, corpsband said:

quality control is ALL about consistency has nothing to do with "high quality".   you can have excellent quality control of a low performing product.  QC is about the control -- nothing to do with excellence of the product.

is there more to the big picture than just the switch? perhaps but i thinks it's biggest factor.  not the only one -- but the one with most impact.

the internet improving quality -- perhaps that's taking place as we speak. i don't think it's truly been going long enough to make a significant impact across all of the corps.

as for instructor quality improving -- present your evidence.  i suspect that instructors in the past were just as good as those today.  in fact i suspect that they may have been better (they were working with a more "raw" incoming MM).  

I worked in quality control, inspecting welds on pressure vessels. You absolutely look for high quality. Consistency is a contributing factor in that, but consistency isn't the whole story. You can consistently weld a certain way, the welds may even look good, but if the weld doesn't penetrate the steel, it won't hold. And a quality weld may not necessarily look pretty. Yamaha makes a quality product, consistently, but they do have quality control issues on some horns, horns with defects, just because of the volume they produce. Kanstul makes a superior horn, but you argue they're less consistent due to the low volume of horns they produce. I doubt this is the case. More attention can be payed to each horn to ensure its quality and consistency. This is why they're more expensive, and why larger manufacturers have taken over the game. 

I should be more clear about instructors. The top corps have always had good instructors. But smaller local corps may not have. That was the nature of drum corps even a decade ago. The corps had to make do with the local talent, both for members and instructors. Look at the Blue Knights. That was a Colorado-dominated group until only a few years ago; try and find a Colorado member there now. What changed? The increasing connectivity of our world. Now, members can see and communicate with corps easily through Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. Smaller corps can access and recruit instructors from across the nation, due to the ease of communication through the Internet. So these smaller, younger, more regional corps are absolutely able to hire better instructors, just due to the fact they can broaden their search from the local community hall. So instructor talent has increased through the ranks, but not necessarily at the top. 

[shofmon88]

6 minutes ago, Liahona said:

I count 3 valves :)

[corpsband]

10 minutes ago, shofmon88 said:

I worked in quality control, inspecting welds on pressure vessels. You absolutely look for high quality. Consistency is a contributing factor in that, but consistency isn't the whole story. You can consistently weld a certain way, the welds may even look good, but if the weld doesn't penetrate the steel, it won't hold. And a quality weld may not necessarily look pretty. Yamaha makes a quality product, consistently, but they do have quality control issues on some horns, horns with defects, just because of the volume they produce. Kanstul makes a superior horn, but you argue they're less consistent due to the low volume of horns they produce. I doubt this is the case. More attention can be payed to each horn to ensure its quality and consistency. This is why they're more expensive, and why larger manufacturers have taken over the game. 

I should be more clear about instructors. The top corps have always had good instructors. But smaller local corps may not have. That was the nature of drum corps even a decade ago. The corps had to make do with the local talent, both for members and instructors. Look at the Blue Knights. That was a Colorado-dominated group until only a few years ago; try and find a Colorado member there now. What changed? The increasing connectivity of our world. Now, members can see and communicate with corps easily through Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. Smaller corps can access and recruit instructors from across the nation, due to the ease of communication through the Internet. So these smaller, younger, more regional corps are absolutely able to hire better instructors, just due to the fact they can broaden their search from the local community hall. So instructor talent has increased through the ranks, but not necessarily at the top. 

Clearly talking past each other on QC.  McD's has GREAT quality control but their hamburgers are not the finest.  You're confusing your job with jobs of QC across many industries.  Sure poor QC can produce bad products.  But great QC can also produce very consistently mediocre products.  

As for internet argument,  you're veering far off course and still haven't made the case for instructor quality increasing.  I stand by my point:  the internet has absolutely nothing to do with the intonation of bugles vs. trumpets :-) 

Edited January 18, 2017 by corpsband

[shofmon88]

1 hour ago, corpsband said:

Clearly talking past each other on QC.  McD's has GREAT quality control but their hamburgers are not the finest.  You're confusing your job with jobs of QC across many industries.  Sure poor QC can produce bad products.  But great QC can also produce very consistently mediocre products.  

As for internet argument,  you're veering far off course and still haven't made the case for instructor quality increasing.  I stand by my point:  the internet has absolutely nothing to do with the intonation of bugles vs. trumpets :-) 

And Yamaha are very consistent, mediocre products. Well, not mediocre, but certainly not the greatest. Their quality is surpassed by Kanstul's quality. 

No, the internet has everything to do with enabling smaller/lower placed corps to improve their teaching staff, which therefore leads to better players. Players who can play in tune, regardless of the horn pressed to their faces. I'm not arguing that the internet somehow improved the inherent intonation of G bugles, I'm arguing that the toolsets available to instructors to provide quality instruction are much greater than they were years ago. Therefore, even smaller lines play better. If corps were still playing G, I guarantee that all else staying equal, you would still hear better hornlines than those in 1999, right down to the bottom of the activity.

 

[corpsband]

17 minutes ago, shofmon88 said:

And Yamaha are very consistent, mediocre products. Well, not mediocre, but certainly not the greatest. Their quality is surpassed by Kanstul's quality. 

No, the internet has everything to do with enabling smaller/lower placed corps to improve their teaching staff, which therefore leads to better players. Players who can play in tune, regardless of the horn pressed to their faces. I'm not arguing that the internet somehow improved the inherent intonation of G bugles, I'm arguing that the toolsets available to instructors to provide quality instruction are much greater than they were years ago. Therefore, even smaller lines play better. If corps were still playing G, I guarantee that all else staying equal, you would still hear better hornlines than those in 1999, right down to the bottom of the activity.

 

I have no argument with this.  But I don't it has anything to do with comparing the intonation of  bugles with Bb instruments.    Instead I'd argue that it holds the potential to increase the effectiveness of instruction.  It's certainly a tool but like any tool it's only as good as the hand that wields it.  And you still haven't made a case that instructors are somehow better now than in the past.  

Edited January 19, 2017 by corpsband

[Hrothgar15]

3 hours ago, shofmon88 said:

So, Bb sopranos. 

I'd to see a 2 valve Bb soprano, just because. It would be freer blowing, right? Perfect for a lead player who never needs the 3rd valve anyway. 

That would be a weird instrument, and I love weird instruments. 

I'm trying to do the math to see which notes would be unplayable in this configuration. How would this what arrangers could do with the music (not like it'd ever happen)? 

[Fran Haring]

4 hours ago, corpsband said:

as for instructor quality improving -- present your evidence.  i suspect that instructors in the past were just as good as those today.  in fact i suspect that they may have been better (they were working with a more "raw" incoming MM).  

That's an interesting point... one I had not thought of.  One of a million things I haven't thought of.  LOL.

I can only speak for my own experience from back in the day... and I hope this doesn't come across as a "things were better in my day, you whippersnappers" sort of thing... LOL...but during my days with DCA's Sunrisers... 1977-82... we had some GREAT brass teachers.

Dennis Dewey, Pete Franceschina, Tom McCarthy, Bob Pearson, John Arietano... hardly "household names" to most of you reading this... but I learned quite a bit from all of them. They absolutely got the most out of a horn line filled with "drum corps players"... few of us with any other experience in music.

The instruction today is top notch, and I'm gonna take a semi-educated guess that the teaching and education of the members is much more consistent across the board than it was in my day... but you're right, the experience I had was one of being exposed to some teachers/instructors who really knew their stuff.
 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Fran Haring