MikeD Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 That's assuming the new, startup corps would be of a quality level that they would compete for the same pool of members. I really don't see that being the case. But a junior DCA division would be a wonderful breeding ground for future Sr corps members. The only problem I see here is the junior division corps losing members to the senior ones and having to constantly rebuild, so you cut the age difference at something acceptable, say 18, and grandfather the existing senior members under that age. Age 18 and under...that is the age group of HS Marching Bands...in far greater number than drum corps ever couldd...or did. I jst don't see where the interest would be to create enough of these corps to provide the experience you are contemplating. Those kids already get it. The percentage-wise few who want to proceed to drum corps can do so now...and if you look, the DCI Open class corps are not full, and there are lots of smaller all-age corps that could absorb interested local kids, yet are still tiny. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) An idea came to me at work about some of the issues raised. I'm not even going to say it's a good idea at all, I'm unsure of it's remotely good. BUT-- it may point to some things that are already in place that could stand to be brought forward and improved upon in the future. There's been some current of concerns about how DCA is getting younger, and the shows are becoming a lot harder to physically perform for anyone that's remotely "old". I sat down and thought about this. I have no intent to suggest DCA Open and A should change in the direction I outline here as just an idea. This is not some proclamation or thing of brilliance. Okay? I have a friend at work who is in his 60's I believe that still seriously amateur wrestles off and on- against his own age group. The PGA has a Senior Tour where guys like Nickalus and Palmer can go and do their thing competitively. I know, we have non-competitive Alumni corps. This is for those old fogies like myself- why not say, a DCA Master's Class? Yes, I know we have I and E and Minis. The thing is, they're only out for one weekend. Should we expand some of the grass-root efforts to a point at some shows? just an idea. Also, to go with the Master's class- which would be totally disconnected from the currently existing DCA competitive structure, we would have new sheets and a new format designed for "old" people. C2 says "Old" is 25 and up. For once, I may agree with Hop on that. Pick a number for the age. I don't think that's to be worried over- yet. Show length, minimum of 5, max 7 to 7 and a half. Less to learn, teach, perfect. less chances to rip out knees. Less rehearsal time needed to make a nice show that people will enjoy, and less time to subject people to a show if... well, it's something bad. Also, we've discussed this here. People design to the sheets. Let's design sheets to suit old fogies too. I am serious here, even though I am poking fun at the concept of "old". I'm not trying to be satirical. Folks want less worry about making things slewed towards content and trying to stuff everything cool into the program to get the top box number up. We'll have a top and bottom box, but the raw numbers would be multiplied by 1.3 for the top box and 1.7 for the bottom. Trust me, this would remove the drive on trying to do too much and wow everyone with impossible content and keep things more down to earth for the older folks so they don't blow up knees and have thrombos. Performance quality would trump having a more difficult book. Ge-30 points for Music and Visual, use whatever multiplier to get 30. Why? We get rid of that Communication numbo-jumbo, since for the most part it seems to be chain-tethered to the actual GE number the judge gives. Use a visual ensemble and Guard person, get rid of the percussion and brass- just go Music Ensemble. Why? Some of these corps might/likely be very asymmetric in the use of percussion and electronics. The main thing is- does it all sound decent and listenable up in the box as a whole??? Weight everything to make the proportions how you like. That can be argued later. To me that's not important yet, just the basic concept, okay? Keep shows short, emphasis on doing things well over trying to impress with too much and too hard, design for older bodies who can play well, not necessarily run the track meet or have the time for all the practice... and maybe you have some option designed to get the older folks who want to compete but can't run like The Flash. There are some corps recently around that were kind of like this. Watching some video of them kind of guided me this way. I figure Fran can create the Ski Mask Brigade from Parts Unknown doing "Soup! It's what's in my bowl for Lunch!" as a show and I can compete against him with the Big W Experimental Corpkestra from The Burning Man Festival doing "The Power of 7". I wouldn't care what score I got or whether Fran would bust me by 30 points- but I bet those two corps would have a lot of fun, make some great sounds on the field, make people happy, and give some old fogies a chance to do their thing with what they can do. Any age limits beneath 25? No. Hey- maybe the corps encourage entire families to perform, and encourage the youngsters to go on to one of the heavy hitters after learning well-grounded basic skills off the old folks. It could feed DCA Open and A in that way! Have to go, phone. Discuss knowing I'm not doing this as some kind of manifesto or panacea. Will do my very best to answer any questions or comments. It could be, they already have this in place in DCA in other guises. Maybe then they could expound on those guises during the season- maybe a related I and E/small ensemble contest before the evening show. Encourage everyone to enter- maybe encourage some of the local HS kids who aren't in a corps to take a stab at it. Give those kids something to do for their summer with their horns and percussion in some cases. Charge enough entry fees to pay for the judges and facilities, and maybe tell folks that an evening show ticket gets them in free to watch that earlier event. (this thought is incomplete, forgive me, please don't shoot, no time) Edited September 20, 2015 by BigW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 You know one thing people forget when talking about attendance at finals is all the people from other areas that don't attend because of the travel to the Northeast that otherwise might. How many drum corps fans are we missing out on from other parts of the country by limiting our discussion to areas within a few hours drive from the New York, eastern Pennsylvania area? I'm not saying that we need to move necessarily, but don't think that the fans from the Northeast that wouldn't travel to a further facility wouldn't necessarily be replaced with fans from another area. Just a thought. Dan I would say an area needs a base of say 3000-4000 fans showing up their events to be sure. otherwise the corps lose $$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 As it stands they are paying $12 - $15 to see the same three corps over and over now. Who's to say they wouldn't be willing to pay the price of admission to see the entire circuit? Might be worth a try. Again, I'm not saying that it should be down here, but I don't think we should discount ANY other location purely because of speculation on whether people would turn out or not. Dan they tried it at Winston Salem at $40 a head. flopped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 An idea came to me at work about some of the issues raised. I'm not even going to say it's a good idea at all, I'm unsure of it's remotely good. BUT-- it may point to some things that are already in place that could stand to be brought forward and improved upon in the future. There's been some current of concerns about how DCA is getting younger, and the shows are becoming a lot harder to physically perform for anyone that's remotely "old". I sat down and thought about this. I have no intent to suggest DCA Open and A should change in the direction I outline here as just an idea. This is not some proclamation or thing of brilliance. Okay? I have a friend at work who is in his 60's I believe that still seriously amateur wrestles off and on- against his own age group. The PGA has a Senior Tour where guys like Nickalus and Palmer can go and do their thing competitively. I know, we have non-competitive Alumni corps. This is for those old fogies like myself- why not say, a DCA Master's Class? Yes, I know we have I and E and Minis. The thing is, they're only out for one weekend. Should we expand some of the grass-root efforts to a point at some shows? just an idea. Also, to go with the Master's class- which would be totally disconnected from the currently existing DCA competitive structure, we would have new sheets and a new format designed for "old" people. C2 says "Old" is 25 and up. For once, I may agree with Hop on that. Pick a number for the age. I don't think that's to be worried over- yet. Show length, minimum of 5, max 7 to 7 and a half. Less to learn, teach, perfect. less chances to rip out knees. Less rehearsal time needed to make a nice show that people will enjoy, and less time to subject people to a show if... well, it's something bad. Also, we've discussed this here. People design to the sheets. Let's design sheets to suit old fogies too. I am serious here, even though I am poking fun at the concept of "old". I'm not trying to be satirical. Folks want less worry about making things slewed towards content and trying to stuff everything cool into the program to get the top box number up. We'll have a top and bottom box, but the raw numbers would be multiplied by 1.3 for the top box and 1.7 for the bottom. Trust me, this would remove the drive on trying to do too much and wow everyone with impossible content and keep things more down to earth for the older folks so they don't blow up knees and have thrombos. Performance quality would trump having a more difficult book. Ge-30 points for Music and Visual, use whatever multiplier to get 30. Why? We get rid of that Communication numbo-jumbo, since for the most part it seems to be chain-tethered to the actual GE number the judge gives. Use a visual ensemble and Guard person, get rid of the percussion and brass- just go Music Ensemble. Why? Some of these corps might/likely be very asymmetric in the use of percussion and electronics. The main thing is- does it all sound decent and listenable up in the box as a whole??? Weight everything to make the proportions how you like. That can be argued later. To me that's not important yet, just the basic concept, okay? Keep shows short, emphasis on doing things well over trying to impress with too much and too hard, design for older bodies who can play well, not necessarily run the track meet or have the time for all the practice... and maybe you have some option designed to get the older folks who want to compete but can't run like The Flash. There are some corps recently around that were kind of like this. Watching some video of them kind of guided me this way. I figure Fran can create the Ski Mask Brigade from Parts Unknown doing "Soup! It's what's in my bowl for Lunch!" as a show and I can compete against him with the Big W Experimental Corpkestra from The Burning Man Festival doing "The Power of 7". I wouldn't care what score I got or whether Fran would bust me by 30 points- but I bet those two corps would have a lot of fun, make some great sounds on the field, make people happy, and give some old fogies a chance to do their thing with what they can do. Any age limits beneath 25? No. Hey- maybe the corps encourage entire families to perform, and encourage the youngsters to go on to one of the heavy hitters after learning well-grounded basic skills off the old folks. It could feed DCA Open and A in that way! Have to go, phone. Discuss knowing I'm not doing this as some kind of manifesto or panacea. Will do my very best to answer any questions or comments. It could be, they already have this in place in DCA in other guises. Maybe then they could expound on those guises during the season- maybe a related I and E/small ensemble contest before the evening show. Encourage everyone to enter- maybe encourage some of the local HS kids who aren't in a corps to take a stab at it. Give those kids something to do for their summer with their horns and percussion in some cases. Charge enough entry fees to pay for the judges and facilities, and maybe tell folks that an evening show ticket gets them in free to watch that earlier event. (this thought is incomplete, forgive me, please don't shoot, no time) not all alumni corps move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 not all alumni corps move True. This would be for corps who would wish to compete for numbers, not just do exhibitions. Maybe some Alumni corps would try this, or maybe some corps could be founded, whatever to do this. Think of it as a bridge between the exhibition only alumni corps and the Open/A class corps that exist. In theory, you might just be able to get away with not moving very much, take the minimum score/beating and just go for it anyway. Have some kind of good guard stuff- not worry about winning the whole thing, just doing something worthy of respect. Or, keep the brass and percussion mostly static and let the Guard provide the movement. Seen that kind of thing too. It would give the opportunity for those of us who still have a good head on their shoulders and have the musical skills- but maybe don't want to wreck their backs and knees but still do some cool stuff and compete if they had the time, etc. I did think of you, myself, and others while I formulated this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Detweiler Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 What about giving the alumni corps the option to compete or go exhibition? Happens in the band world all the time. That way we aren't re-inventing the wheel and starting something from scratch. Award an Alumni Champion for those that compete but also give the ones that don't want to a chance to perform. Just a thought. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Dan, there would be no issue at all with current alumni groups competing for score or not. That's part of the beauty of this. There even could be new corps formed under this aegis that are not affiliated with any old-time corps that just have older members that could put on a very presentable program under the loose guidelines I threw out there. Either path to the creation of those organizations would be fine. I've had a concern myself about re-inventing the wheel with this. That could mean that things already in place could be expanded on or utilized better to provide better solutions for everyone. I see the main goal as providing an appropriate venue to compete for those who can't run full tilt anymore for 10 minutes but want that challenge. If that can be done using existing structures, it should be done. It certainly would help get rid of that concern of "It's getting younger!!!" The one thing I would not want to do is alter the existing Open/A guidelines and thrust to accommodate this idea. I think that would be absolutely terrible. I just want to really make sure people understand that I think all of that is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shenandoahsound Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 What BigW describes to me is almost exactly what SoundSport is, which is one of the reasons we have gone that route for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 What BigW describes to me is almost exactly what SoundSport is, which is one of the reasons we have gone that route for now. Yes. It does, though some of these corps could be much larger. Also-- There appear to be very few events for it, I know of none that were anywhere near the hub of the DCA base. Also, is there any real attendance, or is it more like SCCA Club racing or autocross, mainly for the contestants with few fans in attendance except for the participants? SDCA... Very little goes on, and from what little I have read, they're quasi-competitive at best, using a clap-show format IIRC. Also, SCDA isn't within 200 miles of the NE DCA core. I'm sure that will rankle some of the SDCA people, if any are left on DCP. If you're not getting the news out, how can you expect anyone to know what in Sam Scratch you're actually doing? All of this being said, why can't DCA promote and create their own vision of this kind of product? Why does it just let DCI do things like this and sit back to a large extent? On this tangent-- I got interrupted earlier when I was discussing expanding the small ensemble and solo contests perhaps to some of the DCA venues earlier in the day. The one thing I didn't get to was this-- Put a little skin in the game for those entrants. Have the judges choose a solo/duet/trio contestant and an ensemble entrant to perform at that night's show as part of the exhibitions. We're talking a 3 minute time limit for a solo IIRC, and a lot of those small ensemble/minis wold be very welcome. Some of those soloists would be a real gas as well, I'm certain, depending on who might turn up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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