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1 minute ago, cfirwin3 said:

Again.  Bernstein's Mass is much more FOR the atheists than anyone else.  It's a really divisive choice for source material... and even more divisive to choose to present it as closely as possible to the theatrical experience.

The more that people are aware of that, then perhaps the more people will enjoy the show (from all sides)... but I don't understand why the audience should be put under those conditions.

I listen to good music for enjoyment, so I was not aware of LB intent.  Then why are the Cadets giving folks like me a different read of the music?  Thanks for the input.

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Just now, Tobias said:

Disagree. I think each group has to work with their own uniqueness. Cadets tend to be more literal and others more subtle. It's art. Maybe preferences are different but no right or wrong. Cadets show is easy to read, lots of little things going on and much layering to occur. Last year they came out with a show that no one knew what was going on. I feel this show has the wheels to girl as the season progresses. Some shows last night I didn't know what was going on. It's Cadets a bit more modern but still Cadets with what may be one of their best guards in years. Bravo for fixing what was wrong last year. 

But don't you think that the Mass has such a niche audience with respect to 'understanding' it that it isolates and divides the viewers?  I totally agree that this has MUCH more clarity than last year (so long as you know the Bernstein work, and that the Cadets are presenting it as intended).

I'm saying 2 things there.  One is about the uniforms, and the other is about the content.  I don't think the content is chasing anybody... I just don't understand how you go from a concern over a lack of clarity last year to choosing a theme that was composed in a vacuum for a fairly small set of patrons, with a less-than-diverse world-view, for the opening of a national facility for the arts.  The Mass is a wonderful piece of work, musically.  Some people may view it as the same theologically (or rather anti-theologically)... and some people 'in the know' wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.  I know that 'art' often has a divisive quality... but is that what the Cadets want/need right now?

It's a head-scratcher for me.

On the other side.  They sound and look amazing... they always do.  I just don't get the decision-making that is going on.

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Just now, Ghost said:

I listen to good music for enjoyment, so I was not aware of LB intent.  Then why are the Cadets giving folks like me a different read of the music?  Thanks for the input.

I can give you a big shoulder shrug...

But I suspect that there is a bit of the intention on the part of the composer to allow you to walk away with some assumptions that you unknowingly bring to the viewing experience.

That is to say... that the composition partly expects you to walk away with what you bring in.  The unfortunate thing (as the Cadets are entertainers) is that stuff like this usually causes people to focus on the more negative, stand-offish elements that they bring in rather than a more benefit-of-the-doubt point of view.  It is HIGH ART.  Absolutely.

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I (and it seems like a lot of others) want the show to be more abstract and less literal. The music is more "esoteric" than other corps in that it has actual substance and nuance instead of just smashing the audience with "impact moments" and I hope they scale back the non-musical to match that. However, history tells us that 1) judges will say "I don't get it" in critique a lot so 2) they will make everything MORE literal (and embarassing) and less subtle as finals approaches (see 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016). So we'll see

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17 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

But don't you think that the Mass has such a niche audience with respect to 'understanding' it that it isolates and divides the viewers?  I totally agree that this has MUCH more clarity than last year (so long as you know the Bernstein work, and that the Cadets are presenting it as intended).

I'm saying 2 things there.  One is about the uniforms, and the other is about the content.  I don't think the content is chasing anybody... I just don't understand how you go from a concern over a lack of clarity last year to choosing a theme that was composed in a vacuum for a fairly small set of patrons, with a less-than-diverse world-view, for the opening of a national facility for the arts.  The Mass is a wonderful piece of work, musically.  Some people may view it as the same theologically (or rather anti-theologically)... and some people 'in the know' wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.  I know that 'art' often has a divisive quality... but is that what the Cadets want/need right now?

It's a head-scratcher for me.

On the other side.  They sound and look amazing... they always do.  I just don't get the decision-making that is going on.

With such large scale changes at Cadets, choosing Mass was a significant nod to its past. Yes, new unis, yes, new drill and staging, but must be cautious to not lose your identity. The show is very well constructed maybe overly so after last year but that can be adjusted very easily with lessening narration and layering in a subtle manner. The one big caption drag seems to have been corrected so with few "rewrites" and more cleaning starting now, they can be very competitive. With exception of Bloo, I was not impressed with the groups over them. IF Cadets can layer the show without the cheese factor, im optimistic they'll win back fans, and maybe even move up a slot or two from last year.

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14 minutes ago, FTNK said:

I (and it seems like a lot of others) want the show to be more abstract and less literal. The music is more "esoteric" than other corps in that it has actual substance and nuance instead of just smashing the audience with "impact moments" and I hope they scale back the non-musical to match that. However, history tells us that 1) judges will say "I don't get it" in critique a lot so 2) they will make everything MORE literal (and embarassing) and less subtle as finals approaches (see 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016). So we'll see

Not sure judges won't get "Mass". Maybe some audience but not judges. Agree that layering needs to be subtle and not cheesy but this is a new design team so let's pray :-) they don't overdo it. On the musical front, let's hope they get the credit for not chopping up music for impact moments and for integrating a choir to the Mass. let's give credit where it's due.

Edited by Tobias
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Just now, Tobias said:

With such large scale changes at Cadets, choosing Mass was a significant nod to its past. Yes, new unis, yes, new drill and staging, but must be cautious to not lose your identity. The show is very well constructed maybe overly so after last year but that can be adjusted very easily with lessening narration and layering in a subtle manner. The one big caption drag seems to have been corrected so with few "rewrites" and more cleaning starting now, they can be very competitive. With exception of Bloo, I was not impressed with the groups over them. IF Cadets can layer the show without the cheese factor, im optimistic they'll win back fans, and maybe even move up a slot or two from last year.

I believe that you are right.  If they can east up on the artistic "point"... mostly by pulling back narration... that will help.

The irony is that they need less clarity (which was intended to be vague) in order to gain more clarity.

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Just now, Tobias said:

Not sure judges won't get "Mass". Maybe some audience but not judges. Agree that layering needs to be subtle and not cheesy but this is a new design team so let's pray :-) they don't overdo it.

Oh the judges know exactly what this is about.

I think that this is an era, though, where the judges (particularly in GE) are looking at the shows via a reflection of the audience.  And I personally appreciate that perspective... for the sake of fans.

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34 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

Again.  Bernstein's Mass is much more FOR the atheists than anyone else.  It's a really divisive choice for source material... and even more divisive to choose to present it as closely as possible to the theatrical experience.

The more that people are aware of that, then perhaps the more people will enjoy the show (from all sides)... but I don't understand why the audience should be put under those conditions.

No, the Mass ends with the Holy Spirit restoring the faith of the three choirs and a new altar server returning them in song to adoring and praising the Body and Blood of Christ. Doubt does not equate to atheistic skepticism in this case. The sacrilege in Mass is the Celebrant's profane destruction of the Eucharist which, according to the Council of Trent, is an offense that can potentially be punished by excommunication.

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34 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

But don't you think that the Mass has such a niche audience with respect to 'understanding' it that it isolates and divides the viewers?  I totally agree that this has MUCH more clarity than last year (so long as you know the Bernstein work, and that the Cadets are presenting it as intended).

I'm saying 2 things there.  One is about the uniforms, and the other is about the content.  I don't think the content is chasing anybody... I just don't understand how you go from a concern over a lack of clarity last year to choosing a theme that was composed in a vacuum for a fairly small set of patrons, with a less-than-diverse world-view, for the opening of a national facility for the arts.  The Mass is a wonderful piece of work, musically.  Some people may view it as the same theologically (or rather anti-theologically)... and some people 'in the know' wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.  I know that 'art' often has a divisive quality... but is that what the Cadets want/need right now?

It's a head-scratcher for me.

On the other side.  They sound and look amazing... they always do.  I just don't get the decision-making that is going on.

On the other side.  They sound and look amazing... they always do.  I just don't get the decision-making that is going on.

WELL that's a start....

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