Carolina Crown 2017

[Tobias]

I go back to what I said before. Crown is better off without the visual guys (Keith and Leon) except for guard. They will lose kids in guard. But they'll probably get other kids from Texas, Atlanta and SCV that they've never had before. And they have the best drill designer in DCI now. And I doubt he's gonna write anything that looks remotely like Cadets. Why would he want to. He wants the program to be Crown. And an amazing feet and cleaning team. And the best music arranger and brass team out there. And the same drum staff I think except for Aungst...he's definitely a loss but he wasn't really writing any music. Hannum is still there for that so I don't see how the drum line takes anything but a step forward.

We can spin anything but a few things:

1. Aungst leaving the percussion program is not a positive. Travis is great but Tom is the reason finally after all these years, Crown had a strong percussion line last year. Hannum has been there for 5? years already and we didn't see a marked improvement in percussion until Tom came in.

2. Jeff is great and will write a great drill for Crown but let's remember, Cadets from 2012-15 were getting massacred in visual and Jeff wrote all those drills so again...the importance of a top guard program and show coordinator in today's DCI is monumental so Crown has some major loses to deal with.

3. I still think they can perhaps fight and stay in the top 3 but a contender like they've been, not sure with BD, Bloo, a strengthening SCV, and the some other groups.

[Glenn426]

The thing that is now inarguable is the paramount importance of show concept and overall story arc. That's one area where CC has always known what they are about and it is their single greatest strength, even beyond brass and guard. If you have a clear target to shoot at, and everyone intrinsically knows how CC does that, then the entire team can rally quickly and efficiently. That's why I suspect CC will be impacted the least by staff changes.

I sometimes criticize the relative predictability of Blue Devils' show concepts, but I also get the benefit of doing it that way—beyond "that's our thing." You don't have unlimited time and resources to field a medalist show in DCI. BD pretty much is already halfway to the finish line on the first day of camp, before a single MM takes the field. They are in polishing mode by the second month of the season.

The biggest concern to me is losing MM leaders who follow an educator to another world class contender. That's tough to replace at the medalist level without time, which is precious.

My only thing on this is; Who of the staff through all of those great stories that CC told was responsible or pushing for that signature CC Story to be told? I have no idea, maybe it was collective, but in my head I can also say maybe it wasnt the brass guys. MY thinking is that it was KP, MT and that side of the creative force that made sure the guard was staged and integrated enough to tell the story.

I have a feeling that CC will look different next year. Because to have new designers come in and try to mimic previous designers and not play up to their own individual strengths would be a mistake. Jeff writes amazing geometric drills that are calculated to the T. His work in Angels & Demons is proof of that. Not so much staging or intergration that LM has done in the past.

I hope that the new designers come in and try to push their strength, because I fear that if they try to come in and mimic they will fall short.

[MikeRapp]

My only thing on this is; Who of the staff through all of those great stories that CC told was responsible or pushing for that signature CC Story to be told? I have no idea, maybe it was collective, but in my head I can also say maybe it wasnt the brass guys. MY thinking is that it was KP, MT and that side of the creative force that made sure the guard was staged and integrated enough to tell the story.

I have a feeling that CC will look different next year. Because to have new designers come in and try to mimic previous designers and not play up to their own individual strengths would be a mistake. Jeff writes amazing geometric drills that are calculated to the T. His work in Angels & Demons is proof of that. Not so much staging or intergration that LM has done in the past.

I hope that the new designers come in and try to push their strength, because I fear that if they try to come in and mimic they will fall short.

What I am most interested in is what direction they will go in show concept. They won three captions and finished third. That's a strange reality. Third is nothing to sneeze at, it's quite an achievement, but if you win three captions you would normally win the Gold. They may lose some technical achievement, but they might gain in show concept and GE.

I give them kudos for doing a western. That's pretty bold. But there was an emotional connection there that just never really happened, that happened with Bluecoats and to some degree Blue Devils and SCV. Maybe it was the fact that two murders anchored the show concept. Don't know. But Crown always comes with interesting show concepts that are accessible by band kids and still provide an arc that stretches the medium.

[corpsband]

My only thing on this is; Who of the staff through all of those great stories that CC told was responsible or pushing for that signature CC Story to be told? I have no idea, maybe it was collective, but in my head I can also say maybe it wasnt the brass guys. MY thinking is that it was KP, MT and that side of the creative force that made sure the guard was staged and integrated enough to tell the story.

I have a feeling that CC will look different next year. Because to have new designers come in and try to mimic previous designers and not play up to their own individual strengths would be a mistake. Jeff writes amazing geometric drills that are calculated to the T. His work in Angels & Demons is proof of that. Not so much staging or intergration that LM has done in the past.

I hope that the new designers come in and try to push their strength, because I fear that if they try to come in and mimic they will fall short.

ok glenn. you marched boston. you think crown is in trouble. sacktig and subel could never hope to replace potter and may. we get it.

fwiw i think mikerapp kind of nailed it. crown has developed their own identity. i'm not quite sure how i'd describe it but it definitely exists and we all recognize it. i think the new guys will put their own fingerprint on that style. but i also think they can work within it. btw you do know jeff has written for indoor right, right? think he might (and rick for that matter) know something about staging guard?

wrt LM, let's look at the past two seasons. what visual caption was biting them a bt? yeah VA/comp . who would be responsible for that caption? there have been plenty of posters here (since 2010 really) throwing Leon under the bus. i wont do it now. but anyone can see where those posters make the argument from. silly stuff -- like why did the stagecoach go in reverse? because suddenly we added a "we're going back in time" section? yeah ok -- it's a obvious band aid. and why stage a flag ensemble moment on the 10 yd line side two when the focus is on the soloists. sometimes the boo-boos added up enough to push the corps out medal contention.

as i have said for many years, when crown missed (a relative term ill grant you -- 4th place) it was not the performers holding back the show, but the show holding back the performers. and that's fine -- writing winning shows every year is apparently only done by scott chandler. no one else seems to have that particular talent. but man when they did click it was fun to watch. i will miss the old guys. but im also excited about the new!

(btw nowhere does the poster use the word mimic or copy or reproduce in their post)

Edited September 16, 2016 by corpsband

[Tobias]

ok glenn. you marched boston. you think crown is in trouble. sacktig and subel could never hope to replace potter and may. we get it.

fwiw i think mikerapp kind of nailed it. crown has developed their own identity. i'm not quite sure how i'd describe it but it definitely exists and we all recognize it. i think the new guys will put their own fingerprint on that style. but i also think they can work within it. btw you do know jeff has written for indoor right?

(btw nowhere does the poster use the word mimic or copy or reproduce in their post)

Well the Cadets 2016 prove that even a corps rich in history doesn't always have a smooth transition with a new staff.

[corpsband]

Well the Cadets 2016 prove that even a corps rich in history doesn't always have a smooth transition with a new staff.

not sure id pin 2016 on the new staff at all. but i will agree there's no guarantees.

[Glenn426]

fwiw i think mikerapp kind of nailed it. crown has developed their own identity. i'm not quite sure how i'd describe it but it definitely exists and we all recognize it.

MY point is that I attribute the Identity that CROWN has established to KP and his crew. Crown may have fielded it but as a designer myself, I am going to create in my style regardless of where I go.

Jeff and Subel are amazing designers, but they are not LM and KP, they have their own style, their own Strengths. And I'm not saying weaker, just different.

We know very well that Jeff with the Right show Theme- can create a Champion.

I think that if Crown tries to mold these new designers to meet the Crown Mold that was developed by other designers it would be an error and they will have a tough year.

But if you let these designers create without restriction and be themselves and not have the pressure to fit the mold you will have a better product.

Crown should play to their strength, Their Brass. That Brass team should try and tackle a brass piece that is groundbreaking and has been holding in their pocket for some time and have Jeff and Subel add onto that with their own style.

Different, Yes. Worse, NO.

There are many different ways to get to the top.

[corpsband]

MY point is that I attribute the Identity that CROWN has established to KP and his crew. Crown may have fielded it but as a designer myself, I am going to create in my style regardless of where I go.

Jeff and Subel are amazing designers, but they are not LM and KP, they have their own style, their own Strengths. And I'm not saying weaker, just different.

We know very well that Jeff with the Right show Theme- can create a Champion.

I think that if Crown tries to mold these new designers to meet the Crown Mold that was developed by other designers it would be an error and they will have a tough year.

But if you let these designers create without restriction and be themselves and not have the pressure to fit the mold you will have a better product.

Crown should play to their strength, Their Brass. That Brass team should try and tackle a brass piece that is groundbreaking and has been holding in their pocket for some time and have Jeff and Subel add onto that with their own style.

Different, Yes. Worse, NO.

There are many different ways to get to the top.

i dont think anyone here expects Jeff and Rick to be Leon and Keith. you kind of invented that straw man just to shoot him down. i'd strongly disagree that Crown's identity was 'created' by PM&T. did they have a style? sure. will JS and RS styles be different? sure. can they do that and Crown still be Crown. absofreakinglutely. the FNBB has bought themselves a good team. we will miss them and wish them well. but Crown will be just fine thank you.

Edited September 16, 2016 by corpsband

[Glenn426]

i dont think anyone here expects Jeff and Rick to be Leon and Keith. you kind of invented that straw man just to shoot him down. i'd strongly disagree that Crown's identity was 'created' by PM&T. did they have a style? sure. will JS and RS styles be different? sure. can they do that and Crown still be Crown. absofreakinglutely. the FNBB has bought themselves a good team. we will miss them and wish them well. but Crown will be just fine thank you.

The Crown that we all know and love started with the Angels Show? or the Queen show? I dont know for sure but I'd venture to say that happened around the time that those guys got there. Before that we would kick their butts up and down the field. (Lol had to.)They kicked our butts after 2003 and thereafter.

And I have no doubt that Jeff and Subel can create something great. I just think that they just cant try and fit the mold. because that Mold is not theirs. And I'm not shooting them down, I am giving them equal greatness as both teams have achieved greatness in the activity.

If Crown doesn't look like Crown next year I wont think that's a bad thing, because that means that the design guys are bringing in their own style and staying true to themselves.

I think it would be disappointing if Crown Honks are expecting the same old Crown next year and if it looks different that you are disappointed, because different doesn't mean worse.

Imagine a CrownBRASS with a run and gun ending that Jeff can masterfully create. They just need to be allowed to do so.

[corpsband]

The Crown that we all know and love started with the Angels Show? or the Queen show? I dont know for sure but I'd venture to say that happened around the time that those guys got there. Before that we would kick their butts up and down the field. (Lol had to.)They kicked our butts after 2003 and thereafter.

And I have no doubt that Jeff and Subel can create something great. I just think that they just cant try and fit the mold. because that Mold is not theirs. And I'm not shooting them down, I am giving them equal greatness as both teams have achieved greatness in the activity.

If Crown doesn't look like Crown next year I wont think that's a bad thing, because that means that the design guys are bringing in their own style and staying true to themselves.

I think it would be disappointing if Crown Honks are expecting the same old Crown next year and if it looks different that you are disappointed, because different doesn't mean worse.

Imagine a CrownBRASS with a run and gun ending that Jeff can masterfully create. They just need to be allowed to do so.

again -- straw man. perhaps you'd be better off telling the BAC honks not to expect their corps to sound like the cadets, march and spin like crown. 'cause that ain't happening either. see how silly that is?

Edited September 16, 2016 by corpsband