Key signature more important than instrument?

[Lance]

So many factors in this from what I've found. I've done arrangements for brass quintets and woodwind quintets where I had to transcribe up or down from one group of instruments to another because it would sound dead otherwise. I'm sure there's a mathematical/music theory way to describe it, but for me, it's a purely aesthetic decision.  

One thing that I noticed with trying to go from G arrangements I've heard in DCI to Bb is that perfect octaves almost always sound more vibrant with G. Klesch can almost get the same power with Bb instrumentation with the way he structures chords. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Lance

[mingusmonk]

13 hours ago, Kamarag said:

 

Chuck Naffier actually conducted a side-by-side experiment when he was on staff with the Colts right around or shortly after the legalization of any key in 2000. He posted extensively about it on DCP not long after the site was founded a few years later. I'm not going to spend the time looking, but those posts might still be in the site's archives. 

Found one post. Not very revealing. 

 

 

[corpsband]

9 minutes ago, mingusmonk said:

Found one post. Not very revealing. 

 

 

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/79059-why-do-g-soprano-bugles-give-a-more-characteristic-trumpet-sound/&do=findComment&comment=1400373

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.arts.marching.drumcorps/naffier$20Bb$20G|sort:relevance/rec.arts.marching.drumcorps/0N6W6xgoT-E/yPNeLt1jng0J

I'm sure there are lots more.  DCP's advanced search engine goes wonky a lot (403's) 

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q="G Bb"&author=arrangerX 

 

[mingusmonk]

Just now, corpsband said:

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/79059-why-do-g-soprano-bugles-give-a-more-characteristic-trumpet-sound/&do=findComment&comment=1400373

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.arts.marching.drumcorps/naffier$20Bb$20G|sort:relevance/rec.arts.marching.drumcorps/0N6W6xgoT-E/yPNeLt1jng0J

I'm sure there are lots more.  DCP's advanced search engine goes wonky a lot (403's) 

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q="G Bb"&author=arrangerX 

 

I was trying avoid going into the RAMD black hole. 

 

Crisis averted. 

[corpsband]

Just now, mingusmonk said:

I was trying avoid going into the RAMD black hole. 

 

Crisis averted. 

I dove in just because Chuck indicated that's where the "original" post was.   Fortunately my eyes were not subjected to any posts from SHMNBN ! 

[mingusmonk]

Although it was nice to get a laugh out of one of Mike Duffy's many humorous quips. 

Quote

 

From: MIKE DUFFY <mike-...@att.net> Organization: "THE DUFF FILES" "THE TUNE IS OUT THERE!"

Dateline, Seattle, 4/28/99

Subject: Bb/G is it good for me?

Trumpet in left hand, bugle in right, tried to blow both with all my might!!

Result: I sucked!!

You might say my Bach "Balked" at my Ziggyphone:-)

 

McThoseWereThe Daze

 

 

[corpsband]

1 hour ago, mingusmonk said:

Although it was nice to get a laugh out of one of Mike Duffy's many humorous quips. 

 

lots to miss about RAMD.  chuck also posted all the time on RAMB and it was always an education.  BTW we never succumbed to the evil one on RAMB; she posted a few times and we all chased her off. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by corpsband

[Brad T.]

So, I find this whole idea intriguing. So much so, that there is one song that is note for note the same, except transposed down a whole step. This would be Phantom's Fire of Eternal Glory. If I could find a better version of Madison's "Never Walk Alone" besides one lot recording from 2001 on G, I could also do the same with that piece. 

Attached are SoundCloud links to the original 1993 gymnasium recording (on Dynasty G bugles) in Concert C, a high quality recording of Phantom in 2012 during an encore performance (on Jupiter Bb/F brass) in Concert Bb, and the same 2012 recording pitch shifted to Concert C. 

1993: 

 

2012 Concert Bb: 

2012 Pitch Shifted to Concert C: 

The 1993 version is my personal favorite because the rich sound of G bugles cannot be duplicated on Bb horns. Yes, the adjusted pitch recording sounds very much like the 93 version, but the F mellophones sound a bit more tinny and restrained, the trumpets don't come close to the sizzle of the G bugles, and the massive Jupiter tubas pail in comparison to the GG contras. At the time, Phantom should have been using a mix of 2 and 3 valve Dynasty contras, in 4/4 and 5/4 size. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Brad T.

[Hrothgar15]

6 hours ago, Brad T. said:

So, I find this whole idea intriguing. So much so, that there is one song that is note for note the same, except transposed down a whole step. This would be Phantom's Fire of Eternal Glory. If I could find a better version of Madison's "Never Walk Alone" besides one lot recording from 2001 on G, I could also do the same with that piece. 

Attached are SoundCloud links to the original 1993 gymnasium recording (on Dynasty G bugles) in Concert C, a high quality recording of Phantom in 2012 during an encore performance (on Jupiter Bb/F brass) in Concert Bb, and the same 2012 recording pitch shifted to Concert C. 

1993: 

 

2012 Concert Bb: 

2012 Pitch Shifted to Concert C: 

The 1993 version is my personal favorite because the rich sound of G bugles cannot be duplicated on Bb horns. Yes, the adjusted pitch recording sounds very much like the 93 version, but the F mellophones sound a bit more tinny and restrained, the trumpets don't come close to the sizzle of the G bugles, and the massive Jupiter tubas pail in comparison to the GG contras. At the time, Phantom should have been using a mix of 2 and 3 valve Dynasty contras, in 4/4 and 5/4 size. 

This is incredible and required listening for people discussing this topic. Turns out key has a LOT to do with the difference in sound, much more so than I'd realized. The 1993 and adjusted 2012 recordings together help isolate what's actually different about the sound (the aspects you mentioned) and is probably the most controlled comparison we have, not taking into account recording quality.

With the piece being the exact same arrangement and key, this is probably the closest I've heard to a Bb/F hornline sounding like a G one playing the same thing. If only not shifting down a step were actually feasible for live corps, but I understand why arrangers need to.

Nice work!

Edited March 5, 2017 by Hrothgar15

[subcritical]

On 3/5/2017 at 4:02 AM, Brad T. said:

So, I find this whole idea intriguing. So much so, that there is one song that is note for note the same, except transposed down a whole step. This would be Phantom's Fire of Eternal Glory. If I could find a better version of Madison's "Never Walk Alone" besides one lot recording from 2001 on G, I could also do the same with that piece. 

Attached are SoundCloud links to the original 1993 gymnasium recording (on Dynasty G bugles) in Concert C, a high quality recording of Phantom in 2012 during an encore performance (on Jupiter Bb/F brass) in Concert Bb, and the same 2012 recording pitch shifted to Concert C. 

1993: 

 

2012 Concert Bb: 

2012 Pitch Shifted to Concert C: 

The 1993 version is my personal favorite because the rich sound of G bugles cannot be duplicated on Bb horns. Yes, the adjusted pitch recording sounds very much like the 93 version, but the F mellophones sound a bit more tinny and restrained, the trumpets don't come close to the sizzle of the G bugles, and the massive Jupiter tubas pail in comparison to the GG contras. At the time, Phantom should have been using a mix of 2 and 3 valve Dynasty contras, in 4/4 and 5/4 size. 

Thanks for the audio samples! That 1993 sample is pristine! 

I performed spectral analysis of the loud final sustains from the 1993 recording and 2012 recording (shifted to G) with a program I coded up some months ago. The x-axis is in Hz, although I can't guarantee the validity of the axis markers, I believe I ran into some issues with them when  I was working on this. I'm no expert in this, nor am I trying to be one :)

1993


2012 (shifted)


It is interesting to see how clean of a recording the 1993 version is when compared to the 2012 version.