Creative or highly effective funding mechanisms

[Stu]

2 hours ago, ouooga said:

I'm not sure if you're intentionally trying to disagree with yourself, or if you're implying names carry failures but not successes.

Nowhere, not even in the lines you highlighted, did I ever state, imply, indicate that connecting a corps/team name to a past name would cause, bring about, guarantee, generate 'current or future' failure or success.  What I did state is that if you choose to re-organize, re-use, re-form utilizing the specific name/charter of a past organization you are, and shall always be, connected in some manner to that past organization.  In the case of Oregon Crusaders they have had better success under the re-organization, with VK and the Cleveland Browns worse.  But using 'the name' did not cause the success or failures of the re-organized organizations, it only connected them to the past organization.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Stu

[cixelsyd]

21 hours ago, Stu said:

Just because a corps re-locates or re-starts or is re-founded does not sever their connection to the past. Also, all information that I posted about the Crusaders was drawn directly from their website including the following:

The original Oregon Crusaders was founded in 1971 by brothers David and Ron Jones... They wanted to have a Willamette Valley drum corps and originally wanted it to be named the “First Militia Oregon Crusaders” after the historical First Militia of Oregon, but only “Oregon Crusaders” stuck as a name... As the years went by and Ron and David aged out, the corps went dormant, but the designation “Crusaders” was again picked up in 1999 by Rick Wise who, re-founded what was then called the “Southern Oregon Crusaders” based out of Medford, Oregon. Dan Perry was also instrumental in this re-starting of the Oregon Crusaders...  Bill Perkins relocated the corps to the Portland Metro area in 2002 and officially renamed the corps the “Oregon Crusaders” after the original Clackamas-based corps

So, yes really; the 2000 corps certainly did have 'a connection' to the 1971 Oregon Crusaders 'according to their own official website'.

Just because you saw it on the Internet, does not make it entirely true.  The use of the words "re-founded" and "re-starting" above are revisionist history.

Rick Wise picked the name "Crusaders" simply because he was an alum of the Rochester Crusaders.  He had no idea there had been a corps named Crusaders in Oregon 20 years earlier, and there was absolutely no connection to it at the time when he founded (not re-founded) the Southern Oregon Crusaders.  When the corps later moved 273 miles north, rendering the "Southern Oregon" name invalid, they made the name change and acknowledged the previous namesake corps history, in hope of generating additional support via that connection.  That connection became more tangible when Ron Jones "returned" to write original music for their 2003 show.

Getting back to the context... the corps we currently call Oregon Crusaders are a relatively young corps, started in 1999.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, cixelsyd said:

Just because you saw it on the Internet, does not make it entirely true.  The use of the words "re-founded" and "re-starting" above are revisionist history.

Rick Wise picked the name "Crusaders" simply because he was an alum of the Rochester Crusaders.  He had no idea there had been a corps named Crusaders in Oregon 20 years earlier, and there was absolutely no connection to it at the time when he founded (not re-founded) the Southern Oregon Crusaders.  When the corps later moved 273 miles north, rendering the "Southern Oregon" name invalid, they made the name change and acknowledged the previous namesake corps history, in hope of generating additional support via that connection.  That connection became more tangible when Ron Jones "returned" to write original music for their 2003 show.

Getting back to the context... the corps we currently call Oregon Crusaders are a relatively young corps, started in 1999.

Ahhhh. but it is not revisionist history; they were not trying to 're-write history' but merely 'connecting' themselves too that history.  What they did in 2002 was to 'connect' themselves to the original Clackamas based Oregon Crusaders, and solidified that 'connection' in 2003 when Ron, as you stated, 'returned'.  I highlighted where even you acknowledged that they were indeed making that 'connection'.  This, by the way, sort of parallels the connection the new Cleveland Browns has to the previous Cleveland Browns.  So, thank you for inadvertently showing that there was a purposeful 'connection' to the previous incarnation of the Oregon Crusaders; which was the point I was making.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Stu

[cixelsyd]

3 hours ago, Stu said:

Ahhhh. but it is not revisionist history; they were not trying to 're-write history' but merely 'connecting' themselves too that history.  What they did in 2002 was to 'connect' themselves to the original Clackamas based Oregon Crusaders, and solidified that 'connection' in 2003 when Ron, as you stated, 'returned'.  I highlighted where even you acknowledged that they were indeed making that 'connection'.  This, by the way, sort of parallels the connection the new Cleveland Browns has to the previous Cleveland Browns.  So, thank you for inadvertently showing that there was a purposeful 'connection' to the previous incarnation of the Oregon Crusaders; which was the point I was making.

Tell you what - if you can show me a press clipping from 1999 or 2000 describing the Southern Oregon Crusaders as a "restart" or "re-founding" of a pre-existing corps, then you win.

While we wait, here is an article from June 2000 describing the new corps:

http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20000622/News/306229998

And here is the old Southern Oregon Crusaders website from Angelfire, describing the 2001 corps as a corps in the 2nd year of its existence:

http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/SOCrusadersBrass/staff/staffpages/rick.html

[Stu]

47 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

Tell you what - if you can show me a press clipping from 1999 or 2000 describing the Southern Oregon Crusaders as a "restart" or "re-founding" of a pre-existing corps, then you win.

While we wait, here is an article from June 2000 describing the new corps:

http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20000622/News/306229998

And here is the old Southern Oregon Crusaders website from Angelfire, describing the 2001 corps as a corps in the 2nd year of its existence:

http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/SOCrusadersBrass/staff/staffpages/rick.html

I am adult enough to acknowledge that there are not any press clippings from 1999 or 2000 which connected the current corps to the past Oregon Crusaders.  But in 2002 that changed. Even you acknowledged that in 2002 Bill Perkins connected the current corps to the past Clackamas Oregon Crusaders with the official name change, and that connection became solidified when Ron Jones, the founder of the original Oregon Crusaders, joined forces with the new corps.  And it is that connection which glues to 1971 corps to the current corps.

Let's say that you own a drum shell factory in Cincinnati called XYZ Drums; and you decide to move that factory to the north side of Dayton near Covington; and you changed your name to Rogers in honor of the original Rogers Drums which was based in Covington; then the former CEO of the original Rogers provided some sort of services to your company.  While you would not have been born out of the old company, those connections would indeed glue your company to the past Rogers company.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Stu

[ouooga]

23 minutes ago, Stu said:

I am adult enough to acknowledge that there are not any press clippings from 1999 or 2000 which connected the current corps to the past Oregon Crusaders.  But in 2002 that changed. Even you acknowledged that in 2002 Bill Perkins connected the current corps to the past Clackamas Oregon Crusaders with the official name change, and that connection became solidified when Ron Jones, the founder of the original Oregon Crusaders, joined forces with the new corps.  And it is that connection which glues to 1971 corps to the current corps.

Let's say that you own a drum shell factory in Cincinnati called XYZ Drums; and you decide to move that factory to the north side of Dayton near Covington; and you changed your name to Rogers in honor of the original Rogers Drums which was based in Covington; then the former CEO of the original Rogers provided some sort of services to your company.  While you would not have been born out of the old company, those connections would indeed glue your company to the past Rogers company.

 

You're starting to border on the Ship of Theseus paradox. If we have Lincoln's ax sitting in a museum, but in the course of time and preservation we've replaced the handle 3 times and the ax head 2 times; is it still Lincoln's ax?

[Stu]

38 minutes ago, ouooga said:

You're starting to border on the Ship of Theseus paradox. If we have Lincoln's ax sitting in a museum, but in the course of time and preservation we've replaced the handle 3 times and the ax head 2 times; is it still Lincoln's ax?

That paradox does not apply here for three reasons: 1) We are talking about the transference of a Brand Name not claiming a completely changed Object is original; 2) For that particular paradox to actually work within DCI you must also apply it to any corps in which they have replaced all original personnel and equipment (ie objects). Which would mean that many corps like The Cadets or Madison Scouts that no longer use their original personnel or equipment would fall under that premise and thus they would be in question under that paradox. and 3) I do not contend that the current Oregon Crusaders corps 'is' the actual and original past corps, but the current corps did in 2002 decide to officially connect themselves to that past corps.  Again, similar to the current Cleveland Browns in the NFL or the hypothetical Rogers Drum Company example.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Stu

[ouooga]

Alright, here's an idea. What if a corps were to start a second corps, sticking only to the local level, to primarily do paid parades and local events year round to help raise funds for the primary corps and the organization as a whole?

[garfield]

1 hour ago, ouooga said:

Alright, here's an idea. What if a corps were to start a second corps, sticking only to the local level, to primarily do paid parades and local events year round to help raise funds for the primary corps and the organization as a whole?

Or, a Soundsport team like Madison did this year.

Both Madison and SCV changed their names this year to reflect their diversity of programming.  I think that vindicates your idea.

Two parades on one day!