Why does Jersey Surf do so bad?

[cage]

The reason some of these corps have jumped to World Class going all the way back to Mandarins and Magic (and Magic was world class before taking a year off in 2001) in 2002 is because you get a much better show pay out.  To be World Class you have to meet certain criteria such as proving you are not going to run out of money half way through tour and you have a food truck to feed the kids throughout the summer.  World Class brings in more money.  

[ouooga]

1 hour ago, cixelsyd said:

Next, what does "target" mean, anyway?  If a corps is full of members from the same state where they are based, is that because the corps "targeted" area kids, or because area kids targeted the nearest corps?

Target means who the marketing is designed primarily to speak to. If McDonald's "targets" men between the ages of 18 and 25 with an annual income of $25,000 to $35,000, and men between the ges of 18 and 25 with an annual income of $25,000 to $35,000 choose to eat at McDonald's, it isn't because that group "targeted" McDonald's, it's because McDonald's marketing worked.

[corpsband]

6 minutes ago, ouooga said:

Target means who the marketing is designed primarily to speak to. If McDonald's "targets" men between the ages of 18 and 25 with an annual income of $25,000 to $35,000, and men between the ges of 18 and 25 with an annual income of $25,000 to $35,000 choose to eat at McDonald's, it isn't because that group "targeted" McDonald's, it's because McDonald's marketing worked.

Where does Surf market itself? (mostly HS MB shows?) 

In any case,  I'm not sure membership tells the whole story.  Lots of HS bands take their young members to extraordinary levels.   So I don't entirely buy the "we're a young corps" argument.  Late start to the season -- yes -- definitely can see that being a major impact. 

Compare Surf to it's competitive WC neighbors.  

Pioneer (-4)
Surf
Cascades (+3)
Spirit (+4.5) 
Pac Crest (+7)

What separates these corps?  Does Pioneer move in later than Surf?  Does Spirit have much older members?  

Many would say you need to spend more money to move up higher.  Is that just to pay for better staff?  Design?  Logistics?  

Or is Surf (and Pioneer) finishing where they are simply because of a philosophical choice by their admin?

Interesting questions indeed.

[PhoenixDCI]

1 hour ago, ouooga said:

Target means who the marketing is designed primarily to speak to. If McDonald's "targets" men between the ages of 18 and 25 with an annual income of $25,000 to $35,000, and men between the ges of 18 and 25 with an annual income of $25,000 to $35,000 choose to eat at McDonald's, it isn't because that group "targeted" McDonald's, it's because McDonald's marketing worked.

Surf does not "target" high schoolers.  It actually does almost no marketing at all that I know of. The schedule IS conducive to those who cannot move in in middle May, and it is the only other world class corps to rehearse in the northeast (other than the Cadets). There is a very wide mix of ages, probably equal high school and college. If you think that Surf's schedule targets high schoolers, then take a look at Blue Stars website - which specifically states that they can excuse high school kids from spring training and have licensed high school teachers on staff who can administer tests to high school kids. http://www.bluestars.org/membership/schedule.php. 

Surf wants to score higher - they WANT to make semis. Believe me, the MMs see the scores and care. Alot. 

[cage]

26 minutes ago, PhoenixDCI said:

 

Surf wants to score higher - they WANT to make semis. Believe me, the MMs see the scores and care. Alot. 

This is definitely true.  I know members knew the scores and we're trying to catch people.  My son was talking to a member of Pioneer and they too want to move up.  If you aren't getting better today, expect to get passed by a couple of corps every year. 

[Eleran]

As Phoenix said, they don't target anyone, high school or otherwise.  And while they do provide a scheduling model that makes it easier for high school members to march there than certain other corps, when my son marched with Surf in 2015 as a high schooler he was still one of the youngest kids there - I seem to recall the majority of the Trumpet line was already in college.

I do think there are certain institutional things that stand in the way of their improvement in the standings, but that can probably be said of most corps, 

 

[lossvegas]

20 hours ago, MisterA said:

So in my opinion corps like Pioneer and Jersey Surf really end up suffering in the scoring column. Just my opinion, but I think Pioneer and Surf along with other smaller corps kind of get screwed over in the long run from the judges. The placements may even be right as there are years where several Open Class corps are better than Surf or Pioneer, but the scoring margins are definitely not accurate. And that is no different than when Pioneer and Surf were Open Class/DII/III and beat several World Class/DI corps at finals week. I love the way these corps just focus on the young performers, and don't always have to worry where they will end up placement wise. If more corps had focused on this, we would probably have closer to 50 corps performing in Indy during finals week.

I find it interesting that the threat went from a question of placement to a question of whether or not the organization should be a world class corps. I didn't really realize that the placements could be more influenced by judges rather than actual performance, but now I understand that. 

I probably should have clarified that I mean their placement, because I have been a long fan of Surf and don't personally think their shows are bad. 

 

As to people thinking they should not be World Class I'm actually very surprised. Bob Jacobs doesn't value the placement of the corps; his definition of being a world class corps runs along the lines of how the corps as a whole approaches everything they do "in a world class manner". To the people saying world class corps should just be based on top university level performers definitely have a different definition for world class than Jacobs. And if you took that definition to every world class corps, could any of them really be world class? 

[BRASSO]

5 hours ago, ouooga said:

To be fair, people are still mad about electronics and Bb instruments too.

 However,  I havn't read a single " electronics " or " Bb instruments " mention brought up today on DCP ,  nor this week.  For the comparison you are seeking, The " G7" was brought up here today and was brought last week on DCP.  And " to be fair", the people that are mad with " electronics", and "Bb instruments"  tend not to be involved in following DCI anymore, and most have left the Planet of DCP by now as well.

Edited March 23, 2017 by BRASSO

[trudy]

5 hours ago, corpsband said:

Where does Surf market itself? (mostly HS MB shows?) 

....   ...

Many would say you need to spend more money to move up higher.  Is that just to pay for better staff?  Design?  Logistics?  

Or is Surf (and Pioneer) finishing where they are simply because of a philosophical choice by their admin?

Interesting questions indeed.

"Target high schoolers" and "Market to high schoolers" isn't really the best way to word it.  They don't specifically reach out to those members, however they specifically cater to the high school schedules in the Northeast (New Jersey doesn't get out until mid June).

Their education "philosophy" (for lack of a better word) is also specifically catered towards those who are newer to the activity.  There's a very big difference in teaching styles if you're on the brass staff at a Crown or Blue Devils and have your pick of the best brass players versus being on the brass staff at a Surf or Mandarins and you have to work on building them up to a high level.  I would argue that to some degree, instructional staff work "harder" (again, for lack of a better word) at the lower placing corps because they get members of all skill levels, versus instructional staff at a top 5 corps, who get their pick of the best.

Being a former member of the administration at Surf, I can say for a fact that it is NOT a specific administrative decision to not place well.  As I said before though, it is a specific administrative decision to provide the experience of marching a World Class corps to those who wouldn't otherwise be able to make the monetary or time commitment to a top level corps.  This, along with the education aspect lead to attracting younger members, and those with less experience.  Because of catering to northeast high school schedules, Surf doesn't move in until mid June, a month after most top corps.

Younger, less experienced talent + Moving in a month later = Lower placement.  Though as I said in my original post, right now for Jersey Surf, the aspects mentioned above are more of a priority than winning a DCI Championship.  Not saying that will never change, but right now, that's the priority and they are happy with that decision.

 

To the point of whether the above philosophy should apply to Worlds Class or Open Class, there are definite advantages to being a World Class corps, especially monetary.  I personally see no disadvantage to being a World Class corps.  If you claim corps like Surf bring down the image of DCI's World Class, that it should be limited to the top marching ensembles in the world, I will point out that the Jersey Surf is still one of the top 30 marching ensembles in the World.  If you consider all of the marching units in the world, is still a pretty big feat.

 

[Tim K]

There have been some comments suggesting Surf is not a WC quality corps and should return to OC. Surf now travels more than OC corps and does have a longer preseason than most OC corps. This has to appeal to members. Also, if marching members want OC, judging from where I understand most Surf members hail from (New England to Virginia), the could march with 7th Regiment, Raiders, maybe Spartans or Music City. I think they'd have a hard time recruiting if they competed in OC. 

Also, if marching members are happy in WC, the administration is happy with the corps, parents are pleased, and fans enjoy them, it may be best to leave things as they are. Yes they may need to develop a more competitive edge and a bit more challenge, but overall things are working well. Tweak but don't overhaul.