Jump to content

Why does Jersey Surf do so bad?


Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Stu said:

I am not offended.  I just find it laughable, and to some extent embarrassing, that what is to the rest of the world as 'World Class' and 'Major League' is based on being the best of the best within the competitive arena in which the units, teams, performers engage.  And what is considered as being 'World Class' and 'Major League' within the competitive arena of DCI is, "if you can rake up enough dough to make it to all of the games you are World Class Major League".

Denials to the contrary,  it seems you are offended.  You are a fan of something that embarrasses you.  

As I said earlier,  further subdivision of the class may make sense if there were enough corps to justify it.  For now it just doesn't.   The nomenclature is just being used to align with WGI (who also allows units who score well below the top to retain their classification).   If it doesn't align with some pro sports,  I could really care less.  Very little in drum corps does.  Adopting terms that seem to apply to pro sports is strictly a marketing gimmick. 

Edited by corpsband
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, corpsband said:

Denials to the contrary,  it seems you are offended.  You are a fan of something that embarrasses you.  

As I said earlier,  further subdivision of the class may make sense if there were enough corps to justify it.  For now it just doesn't.   The nomenclature is just being used to align with WGI (who also allows units who score well below the top to retain their classification).   If it doesn't align with some pro sports,  I could really care less.  Very little in drum corps does.  Adopting terms that seem to apply to pro sports is strictly a marketing gimmick. 

Marketing is fine; marketing with an honest assessment of what is actually being presented is great.   If DCI was marketed as an activity where youth can experience national travel, competitive performances, with some groups performing at rather high levels of achievement, where the audience can get entertained by the various ensembles; that would be authentic!  And if all of the corps within the DCI WC were actually the best marching ensembles within the marching arts activity that would be honest!!!

However when something is reduced to, as you put it, a ‘gimmick’, which is the recent DCI way of marketing with the gimmick terms of ‘Major League’ and ‘World Class’, that is a trick-device designed to attract attention with no real intrinsic value; basically a soft-lie with a smile and a wink.  Now ‘that’ is what I find offensive.  Why?  Because when an uninitiated person is drawn in to see a ‘World Class’ ‘Major League’ DCI performance, and they are presented with any corps classified as ‘World Class’ that evening that is on the lines at or below the quality they see at a High School halftime football game, that gimmick to get them to buy tickets to what they think is a real 'World Class' event is what becomes embarrassing.

Please remeber that I certainly have a deep love and respect for Surf, their youth, and their staff; and am not embarrassed by any corps within DCI.  What I am embarrassed at is DCI calling any corps which is not anywhere close to being the class of the world based on the merits of competition, a corps which is not any better than a high school band, as a ‘World Class’ corps.  That is why I think that the corps which earn the top 12 status on the last day of competition each year should be the corps designated as World Class for the next season.  Again, a designation that is merit based.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Stu said:

For those of you who think I am nuts, here is a general scenario of addressing merit based classifications, pay-outs, and other concerns.

During summer tour, WC and OC corps would actually compete head-to-head at the same smaller shows Sunday – Thursday; again all shows will contain combined corps so that show costs can be strem-lined. What show costs are streamlined by combining your WC & OC in the same show? The current WC corps would be required to tour the entire summer; and if they are not found to be financially able to do so by DCI their designation would turn into OC and the 13th place corps from the previous year would move into WC status; but only if they were financially stable. OC corps could pick and choose what shows they would attend based on their own finances.  Line-ups at these smaller shows would be a few OC corps, Break, then a few WC corps; and step-off times would be determined by previous year’s Final Week score.  <---This is as it is now.  Pay-outs at each small show would be based on that night’s combined competitive placements.  <---What is "combined competitive placements"?  You mean the higher the night's score, the more percentage of the gate the corps gets?  How does this affect corps budgeting if, like '16 Cadets, their show doesn't "earn" enough to pay for the props, equipment, and obligations the corps had at show #1?   By consolidating the shows and splitting the corps up during the week, lower placing WC corps can win more pay-outs at smaller shows, and a fourth or fifth placing OC corps at these smaller shows would actually have pay-outs more than winning at separate OC only shows.  <---All else being equal and attendance held constant in your examples, they might play out on paper.  But, human nature would allow us to presume that shows where the headliner is the 13th-place or 15-place corps from the prior year don't pull as much attendance or revenue as shows where the headliner is a top-12 corps (and especially on a weeknight).  What you're describing is already taking place; about the only thing you're changing is how corps from #13 to #22 are classified. If we presume there are 45 total corps in WC/OC, the current OC stays mostly the same, except they can now perform and get paid at OC shows where their headliner is, say, the Colts (or even Madison!).  Current (mostly) Top-12 stay about the same - their circuit and payouts don't change much.  But those "belly" corps (in the "belly" of the rankings) would begin to share gate receipts with 32 corps in their class, instead of with 21 others in WC.

In the end, what you're describing is simply a distribution of the revenue potential of the 45 corps now in W/O classes.  So World Class does, then, represent financial reward, correct?

 

For all weekend big-events during the summer the current OC corps would compete on Friday and the current WC top 12 corps on Saturday. <--- 33 corps on Friday?  Who's taking off work on Friday to see the first 27 before 5pm?  Only 12 corps the next day and I can get the yard mowed, too?  Yea, I'll do Saturday.  So what's the total gate look like now, and why should WC support OC in such a way?  Why not simply let OC keep its Friday gate and WC does the same for Saturday?  After all, WC has its privileges, right? Pay-outs would be based on the rankings of the two days combined.  This means that if Surf, for example, finished first on Friday against the OC, and their score was actually ninth overall when combined with the Saturday scores, Surf would receive the ninth place pay-out.  <--- And Crown's equipment truck crashed and they borrowed equipment and fielded a stand-still alone.  Oops, there goes their night and, oh yea, several thousand dollars, right?

 

During Finals week the OC, if desired, could still have their finals in Michigan City say on Tuesday to declare an OC winner; then those from the OC who wanted to go on to the Thursday Indy Prelims could do so.  All combined WC and OC corps would compete on Thursday; the top say 20 from Thursday would qualify for Friday; and the top 12 would qualify for Saturday; with pay-outs based on final raw scores from first place on Saturday to last place in Michigan City.  <-- So, those OC corps who "choose" to go to Thursday prelims and play to almost empty stands in LOS would get a cut of the total gate generated by even those fans who specifically come to Indy to only see the Top-12 on Saturday night?

Then that top 12 would become the next year’s WC, and the scenario would start all over.  However, I bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the power hungry voting directors (um ... cough.. the G7) in today's WC would not go along with this idea.

 

 

Edited by garfield
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Stu said:

As stated earlier, apply this WC designation to an extremely inferior baseball team who can't pitch past 65mph; can't hit home runs, can't run fast, can't get the ball to second base on a steal, but what they can do is finance a full season of games.  Call them World Class, and the 'world' will laugh their behinds off.

I keep thinking about corps like, oh, Seattle Cascades and Legends and Music City and how this scheme will affect them. 

Off to the gym where I'll think some more about this.  I'm not convinced of your plan on its merits, not considering the reality of the transitional chaos or the push-back by WC corps sharing the gate or whether OC shows mid-week can be self-supporting.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In response to Garfield –

>There are many shows today which are OC only shows and some are combined WC OC; I understand why this occurred (fear of less audience draw by the elite corps, fear of the lower corps receiving pay-outs that the elite corps wanted for themselves, and done in the name of 'We the powerful are helping the OC corps with travel issues'); I think there are also shows today that the various OC corps do not receive any pay-outs at all.  Shows in this plan would be streamlined in the sense of no more separate OC WC shows but all would be combined OC WC.  The OC corps could do a full or partial tour and not be compelled to attend all shows; WC corps would be compelled to tour entire summer.

> While there would be a separation on step-off times, as in OC corps perform early WC late, there scores and pay-outs would all go head-to-head.   The Term WC would be a title distinction which honors the competitive merits of the top 12 from the previous season and with that comes the privilege of going on later at shows.  I think that is the way it is now for combined shows.

> No local-show audience would get shafted from seeing at the very least the fourth place corps from the previous season. Since there would only be 12 designated WC corps each season, and say there were four shows going on simultaneously on a Tuesday night, the competitive line-ups would be scheduled where one show has the previous year’s 1st place corps, one show has the previous year’s 2nd  place, one show has the previous year’s 3rd, and one has the previous year’s 4th place.

> Weekend shows, I have changed my position thanks to your input, would be a version of the Allentown format.  But if any corps, even an OC corps, on Friday places 9th overall between Friday and Saturday, that corps deserves a 9th place pay-out from the weekend combined show not just based on the Friday attendance.  The current WC corps would have privileges such going on later each day that is true; but if they get competitively beat by a current OC corps from the day before, since it is a combined show, the corps which places higher from both days should earn more pay-out compensation via competitive merit.  And if desired, one weekend show during mid-summer touring could be a Saturday only special show with the top 15 scoring corps within the current season as a TOC kind of thing.

> As for pay-outs. Is DCI an altruistic organization where everything a competitively successful corps earns through competition compensation should be distributed equally among all others?  If so get rid of the gimmick marketing of World Class Major League.  All other Major World Class competitive areas which have monetary pay-outs split the percentage of ‘winnings’ based on competitive merit.  So if this is what they say it is, a World Class Major League, as oppose to merely a gimmick, then pay-out according to competitive merit.  But if this is only a gimmick based marketing ploy, drop the gimmicks, be honest about the socialistic aspects, and pay last place the same as first.

> I have seen where say in ‘World Class’ Racing the Champion from the previous season wreaks out on the first lap and receives the last-place pay-out for that race.  I have seen a previous year’s NCAA finals team get knocked-out of their automatic bid to the NCAA big dance due to losing in the following year’s conference tournament, and that year having to settle on going to the NIT. A long long time ago and far far away, I was told that BD had their equipment truck burn or wrecked or something of that nature at a local show somewhere in the mid-west; that night they borrowed, I think, equipment from VK.

> As for benefiting all of the corps, this system would reward those corps which are both smart and wise within the realm of real WC competition (like the Academy) not corps which desire to perpetually exist on shear altruism or are in the competitive building stages (that is what SoundSport can be for).  And it is not the job of a competitive Sanctioning Body like DCI to distribute their competitive pay-outs to corps based on something other than competitive merit.  It is the job of the competitive Sanctioning Body to provide an equitable and fair set of competitive rules, and allow each unit rise-fall according to their own work ethics and competitive wisdom.

> Lastly, of course there would be extreme push-back by the powerful; especially those which concocted the G7.  Their plan was to perpetually keep all the power and money to themselves whereas this plan is based on shear merit compensation for ‘all’ corps.

Edited by Stu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/22/2017 at 9:19 AM, DrumManTx said:

I feel like they need to decide who they want to be,

Yes, this.  And bringing in what RetiredMusTeach said, if they know who they are, they will play/march like it.  They will sell the shows.  They aren't the only corps struggling with this issue!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Considering that we have somewhat derailed from the original post, and I hate seeing the thread title continue to pop up (I totally disagree with the notion that they "...do bad..."), I would request that we restart the convo in a new thread.  Even copy and paste the last few responses here to the new thread.

IMO, Surf deserves a better headline.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/25/2017 at 5:58 PM, Stu said:

For those of you who think I am nuts, here is a general scenario of addressing merit based classifications, pay-outs, and other concerns.

Top 12 from the previous season’s Saturday Finals would be the current season’s designated World Class (if deemed by DCI as financially able to do a full summer tour), and all others who want to tour or partially tour would be designated as Open Class (again, only if deemed financially stable by DCI).  All corps would be judged on the same sheets for score consistency. Don’t freak, please read on.

During summer tour, WC and OC corps would actually compete head-to-head at the same smaller shows Sunday – Thursday; again all shows will contain combined corps so that show costs can be strem-lined.  The current WC corps would be required to tour the entire summer; and if they are not found to be financially able to do so by DCI their designation would turn into OC and the 13th place corps from the previous year would move into WC status; but only if they were financially stable. OC corps could pick and choose what shows they would attend based on their own finances.  Line-ups at these smaller shows would be a few OC corps, Break, then a few WC corps; and step-off times would be determined by previous year’s Final Week score. Pay-outs at each small show would be based on that night’s combined competitive placements.  By consolidating the shows and splitting the corps up during the week, lower placing WC corps can win more pay-outs at smaller shows, and a fourth or fifth placing OC corps at these smaller shows would actually have pay-outs more than winning at separate OC only shows.

For all weekend big-events during the summer the current OC corps would compete on Friday and the current WC top 12 corps on Saturday.  Pay-outs would be based on the rankings of the two days combined.  This means that if Surf, for example, finished first on Friday against the OC, and their score was actually ninth overall when combined with the Saturday scores, Surf would receive the ninth place pay-out.

During Finals week the OC, if desired, could still have their finals in Michigan City say on Tuesday to declare an OC winner; then those from the OC who wanted to go on to the Thursday Indy Prelims could do so.  All combined WC and OC corps would compete on Thursday; the top say 20 from Thursday would qualify for Friday; and the top 12 would qualify for Saturday; with pay-outs based on final raw scores from first place on Saturday to last place in Michigan City.

Then that top 12 would become the next year’s WC, and the scenario would start all over.  However, I bet you a dollar to a doughnut that the power hungry voting directors (um ... cough.. the G7) in today's WC would not go along with this idea.

 

Why should anyone go along with this idea?  It takes us back in time 50 years, to the days when prize money created the meritocracy you crave.  That was fine in 1967, when we had 400 corps competing and hundreds more parade corps thinking about dipping their toes in the waters of field competition.  Hardly anyone could afford to tour without winning some prize money along the way.  Those who could not compete with the best of the best either died trying, or stayed home until they could.

Much has changed since 1967.  Society is more regulated and more expensive.  Drum corps is more regulated and more expensive.  Just finding a place to rehearse is an existential struggle, never mind meeting modern expectations of how kids should be fed and housed today versus how they were treated on a 1967 road trip.  We no longer have 400 corps - more like 40.  And there are no longer hundreds more parade corps thinking about stepping in.  One thing has not changed, though.  Just as in 1967, hardly any corps can afford to tour without earning some money along the way.  That is why we have member corps, and guaranteed appearance money for them.

I already know what your response to this will be.  If memory serves, you have stated here that you believe corps should have the funds on reserve to pay for their entire tour before they ever hit the road.  Good luck finding 12 corps that can meet your requirement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/25/2017 at 9:54 PM, Stu said:

Marketing is fine; marketing with an honest assessment of what is actually being presented is great.   If DCI was marketed as an activity where youth can experience national travel, competitive performances, with some groups performing at rather high levels of achievement, where the audience can get entertained by the various ensembles; that would be authentic!  And if all of the corps within the DCI WC were actually the best marching ensembles within the marching arts activity that would be honest!!!

However when something is reduced to, as you put it, a ‘gimmick’, which is the recent DCI way of marketing with the gimmick terms of ‘Major League’ and ‘World Class’, that is a trick-device designed to attract attention with no real intrinsic value; basically a soft-lie with a smile and a wink.  Now ‘that’ is what I find offensive.  Why?  Because when an uninitiated person is drawn in to see a ‘World Class’ ‘Major League’ DCI performance, and they are presented with any corps classified as ‘World Class’ that evening that is on the lines at or below the quality they see at a High School halftime football game, that gimmick to get them to buy tickets to what they think is a real 'World Class' event is what becomes embarrassing.

I must conclude that you live in Carmel or Avon, Indiana.  The quality you would see at a typical high school halftime is not even comparable to the level of any DCI world class corps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Stu said:

> No local-show audience would get shafted from seeing at the very least the fourth place corps from the previous season. Since there would only be 12 designated WC corps each season, and say there were four shows going on simultaneously on a Tuesday night, the competitive line-ups would be scheduled where one show has the previous year’s 1st place corps, one show has the previous year’s 2nd  place, one show has the previous year’s 3rd, and one has the previous year’s 4th place.

How would you establish four parallel tours far enough apart to coexist, yet close enough together to meet every Saturday?

Quote

> As for pay-outs. Is DCI an altruistic organization where everything a competitively successful corps earns through competition compensation should be distributed equally among all others?  If so get rid of the gimmick marketing of World Class Major League.  All other Major World Class competitive areas which have monetary pay-outs split the percentage of ‘winnings’ based on competitive merit. 

So does DCI.

By the way, other major leagues have a great number of mechanisms imposed to artificially level the playing field, such as revenue sharing, salary caps, preferential draft picks for losing teams, and so on.  Likewise, DCI employs some revenue sharing in their system.

Something you seem to forget (or deliberately refuse to acknowledge), though, is that DCI is not a professional league.  Not all world-class contests are professional.  There are many competitive sports and activities which, even at their world-class level of competition, do not attract the kind of spectator or media support to enable their participants to make a profession of it.  This leads to various outcomes such as amateur status with national and world contests established (i.e. Olympics), semi-pro leagues, or even hybrids that blend competition and education (i.e. DCI).  

Most of us learn at an early age that marketing slogans should not always be taken literally.  DCI self-identifying as a "major league" is one of those cases - thanks for pointing that out (over and over).  However, your objections to "world class" are too much of a stretch for me.  Your time would be better spent patrolling ads and harassing the two companies who both advertise "the best" of the same product type until one retracts their claim.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...