2020

[Fran Haring]

2 hours ago, Stu said:

 

 

 

Information concerning the dangers of Heatstroke was compiled from the websites of the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and other medical sites as well as direct communication with a physician.  I am involved with a youth sports league so we take the best interest of the health of our youth seriously.   And as for the ‘dry heat' that all of you are taking flippantly and one of you so eloquently making fun of with the ‘LOL’; while humidity exacerbates the miserable feeling of heat, 'dry heat', especially in the 103+* range, is actually more dangerous because the body in those circumstances does not give off that many warning signs of overheating until it is too late.  Again, frequent rest in the shade and hydration are vital, but neither will guarantee prevention of a Heatstroke from hard physical exertion in extreme heat conditions (even dry heat in the 103* - 106* range).  This is one reason why sports camps for scholastic sports programs are regulated on how and when they can conduct activities outside in summer heat conditions by the various academic associations.  And just because no youth has died within an activity is no excuse to implement preventative measures; that would be another one to put in the neglect/stupid category.

No need for a lecture.  I've been to Arizona (Phoenix/Tuscon area) in the summer... and it is wicked.  And I'm not sure Vegas is a great idea, for a variety of reasons.

But should DCI call off the Texas tour, and the shows in the Deep South, if exposure to high heat is a life-threatening concern?  Hasn't exposure to potentially dangerous summertime heat been a part of drum corps for... well... forever?

NOT downplaying the possibility that a serious problem could happen. And yes, dry heat is a concern, for many of the reasons you laid out. When I was in Arizona that summer, I made sure to drink water even if I didn't feel like I needed it... because I had been told by a friend who lived there that, indeed, there are times when you're not sure if you're dehydrating or not.

But today's corps, with their emphasis on member wellness... staying hydrated, using sunscreen, nutrition, etc., are much better equipped to handle/prevent such issues, I think, than those of bygone days.   Man... back then, there were times when we considered ourselves fortunate to get a lunch break and maybe a five-minute water break.  LOL.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Fran Haring

[Fran Haring]

5 minutes ago, Fran Haring said:

 

Oops.  Move along.  LOL

Edited March 30, 2017 by Fran Haring

[Fran Haring]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

For me, I'll take over 100 degree temps, humidity of 18, and a dew point of 25 over 90-85-78 any day. 

I was in Arizona one year in July... daytime temps 107-110, basically, when I was there.

I flew home to Newark Airport in NJ, and when I got outside it was around 90 degrees... but the humidity... wow. An air temp 15-20 degrees cooler than where I was, but it felt a lot worse.

Of course I'll still take that 90 and humid stuff over winter, anytime. 

[HockeyDad]

And this is why our forefathers gave us DCI finals in Whitewater Wisconsin. They had a lot of wisdom and we should have listened to them. Yes, all regionals should be relocated from Texas and Georgia and other such nasty summer places, to the more agreeable moderate climates of Wisconsin 

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

But should DCI call off the Texas tour, and the shows in the Deep South, if exposure to high heat is a life-threatening concern?  Hasn't exposure to potentially dangerous summertime heat been a part of drum corps for... well... forever?

As recently as 2011, when the temps from Texas throughout the mid-west the highs were from 115* to over 120*, DCI and the top corps sure showed how much they really cared about the potential for heatstroke. Many youth in the top corps went down in rehearsals with heat exhaustion and DCI still chose to hold event from broadcasted theater event from Texas.  So yeah you are correct, I suppose that DCI and the top corps have no problems exposing youth to extremely dangerous and life threatening temperature situations in the name of entertainment.

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

But today's corps, with their emphasis on member wellness... staying hydrated, using sunscreen, nutrition, etc., are much better equipped to handle/prevent such issues, I think, than those of bygone days.   Man... back then, there were times when we considered ourselves fortunate to get a lunch break and maybe a five-minute water break.  LOL.

Again look at the Texas event in 2011 where temps were in the 120+* range.  Here are the two options: a) The medical staff warned the corps and DCI about the potential of life-threatening situations, the corps and DCI placed the show above the warnings, and the medical staff did the best they could to keep the youth in the shade and hydrated; or 2) The medical staff advising the corps and DCI were grossly incompetent stating that they could prevent heatstroke via occasional shade and hydration.

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

NOT downplaying the possibility that a serious problem could happen. And yes, dry heat is a concern, for many of the reasons you laid out. When I was in Arizona that summer, I made sure to drink water even if I didn't feel like I needed it... because I had been told by a friend who lived there that, indeed, there are times when you're not sure if you're dehydrating or not.

 

2 hours ago, Fran Haring said:

I was in Arizona one year in July... daytime temps 107-110, basically, when I was there.

I flew home to Newark Airport in NJ, and when I got outside it was around 90 degrees... but the humidity... wow. An air temp 15-20 degrees cooler than where I was, but it felt a lot worse.

In humid heat, like your NJ example, it is a miserable feeling, in dry heat, like your Arizona example, feeling fine is an illusion. Hydration is not a guarantee from getting a heatstroke in either situation. And by relying on your own personal experiences in these two postings, along with a LOL opinion concerning dry heat, you actually are downplaying the possibility that a serious problem could happen.

[Stu]

3 hours ago, ouooga said:

I literally grew up going to outdoor marching band camps in Las Vegas from June through September. I've never once experienced a problem, and have only witnessed a handful of heat-related problems, all due to an individual not drinking enough water. 

There also are air conditioned indoor facilities with vacancy an space to allow more than a dozen corps to rehearse during the summer. I was sure to mention this on the first page of this discussion.

Also for the sake of argument, we've also hosted a three-day outdoor music festival in late June that's attended by nearly 150k people each day for the past seven years. In the sake of transparency, that festival does experience individuals being treated for heat problems. That quantity is always less than 0.5% of the festival's total attendance, and in 100% of those cases it's because the individuals did not drink enough water.

 

I realize you've read some scary things on the Internet, but unfortunately for your argument we simply don't have the problems you're concerned about in a ratio that warrants valid concern. We also have the capacity to deal with heat-related concerns pre- and post- in the event that a problem occurs. Drink water, wear sunblock (both of which corps are encouraged to do already) and you'll be fine.

a) You are relying on personal experience at band camps as compared to the extremely intense outdoor rehearsals conducted by DCI corps.  A better example would be what happened to some youth performers at the 2011 DCI event in Texas previously referenced.

b) You also state the fans at an event as an example at the June festival as opposed to scholastic or professional football players who engage in extreme physical activity in the same manner as DCI corps; again, a better example would be what happened to some youth performers at the 2011 DCI event in Texas.

c) I am not relying upon scary things I read on the internet, but heed the advice of the medical community and the intelligent athletic staff from around the nation;

d) The idea that wearing sunblock and drinking water and you will be fine is flat not true; there is no guarantee that type of behavior will prevent heatstroke in extreme weather conditions;

e) This is not about rehearsing in the standard temp range but in extreme situations.  Moreover, the ratio you reference is one that also leads to the idea we do not need to get out of the 110* weather because according to percentages nobody is likely to die today. Try telling that to the parents of a youth who, even though hydrated properly, still went down with heat exhaustion/or stroke because we put scoring a fraction of a point more ahead of the potential heath issues associated with 110* weather.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Stu

[corpsband]

5 hours ago, Stu said:

Information concerning the dangers of Heatstroke was compiled from the websites of the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and other medical sites as well as direct communication with a physician. 

lol so you're quoting yourself?

shouldn't you just have put that in a regular paragraph?  the quotes made it seem as if you are citing some authoritative source.

anyway i agree that having a show in the middle of the desert during high summer is not really a smart idea.   practice facilities will be outside not air conditioned.  and pre-show warmups will be in full uniform.  

drum corps MM's naturally follow one of the heat illness avoidance recommendations (wear as little clothing as possible) by default!  

Edited March 30, 2017 by corpsband

[ouooga]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

a) You are relying on personal experience at band camps as compared to the extremely intense outdoor rehearsals conducted by DCI corps;

b) You also state the fans at an event as an example at the June festival as opposed to scholastic or professional football players who engage in extreme physical activity in the same manner as DCI corps;

c) I am not relying upon scary things I read on the internet, but heed the advice of the medical community and the intelligent athletic staff from around the nation;

d) The idea that wearing sunblock and drinking water and you will be fine is flat not true; there is no guarantee that type of behavior will prevent heatstroke in extreme weather conditions;

e) This is not about rehearsing in the standard temp range but in extreme situations.  Moreover, the ratio you reference is one that also leads to the idea we do not need to get out of the 110* weather because according to percentages nobody is likely to die today. Try telling that to the parents of a youth who, even though hydrated properly, still went down with heat exhaustion/or stroke because we put scoring a fraction of a point more ahead of the potential heath issues associated with 110* weather.

 

a) Band camp, band performances, and drum corps through Arizona, all of which I've participated in in groups of 100+ or more (not including the other 50+ bands in Las Vegas that do the same).

b) Yes, I'm referring to people doing strenuous activities outside. Dancing at an outdoor music festival with a sample size of more than 150,000 individuals is a statistically reasonable equivalent for the discussion we're having. You don't get to be choosey with science, sorry.

c) See below quotes.

Quote

I am not relying upon scary things I read on the internet,

Quote

Information concerning the dangers of Heatstroke was compiled from the websites of the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and other medical sites 

d) Wearing sunblock and drinking water have been the key differentiating factor between heat-related problems and avoiding heat-related problems in all of the examples I cited, which equates to more than 1 million individual examples collectively. There is never a guarantee, but statistically, taking the necessary precautionary measures seems to have an extremely high success rate.

e) Agreed, prepare for the worst, but to avoid any situation because of the worst possible outcome is entirely ridiculous. It's all about preparation. Marching band members every year are struck by lightning because they're holding metal rods. We don't avoid places with storms, we just take necessary precautions. I've been through tornadoes in drum corps. We don't avoid the midwest, we just go into storm shelters until it passes. Extreme heats means drink water, wear sunblock, and go inside from time to time. And these are conditions that are experienced nationwide in drum corps populated locales (ie. your Texas example). You cited an example from 6 years ago, rather than something more recent, and shows still occur there. This screams that preparation/precaution have kept Texas drum corps shows alive and strong since some bad things happened in 2011. To say that this model applies to one location successfully but would be ineffective in another demonstrates a bias, and to ignore the success of preparation and precautionary measures is called selective science.