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Pittsburgh Pileup - Tuesday, June 27


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50 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 Oh I agree that lots of fans could care less about the scores, especially, I would assume, with incomplete panels doing incomplete evaluations.

Doubtless you are right about many fans, but I feel at least half the audience was still in the stands last night when scores were announced--and I daresay almost none of those people realized the judging panel was incomplete.

However, egress at the stadium was not very good, so it's possible that some people stayed simply because they couldn't get out before Bluecoats started their encore performance (the scores were announced less than a minute after the encore concluded).

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14 minutes ago, N.E. Brigand said:

Doubtless you are right about many fans, but I feel at least half the audience was still in the stands last night when scores were announced--and I daresay almost none of those people realized the judging panel was incomplete.

However, egress at the stadium was not very good, so it's possible that some people stayed simply because they couldn't get out before Bluecoats started their encore performance (the scores were announced less than a minute after the encore concluded).

 No doubt it could be a number of factors. People assign these scores. placements, spreads what they will. And they are all correct in what they choose to make of them, imo. I don't fault the fans here either for the decision by DCI/ show sponsors that in order to save money, we will put these Corps under incomplete judging panels for some of the DCI competitions in the summer.

Edited by BRASSO
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I think too much is being made about "incomplete" panels and that they are basically worthless.  I would point out that
the placements and point spreads, this early in the season, would most likely change VERY little if you factored in the other 3 judges.  Even with the two 5 man panels the Bluecoats have now experienced, along with the two 8 man panels, not a lot has changed.

The 5 man panels have included a few judges that will be on the panels in Indy.  Getting their input this early is, to a degree, helpful. 

Often the early season panels include some less experienced judges that need the opportunity to, themselves, be evaluated.

As the season progresses and the regionals start happening you will see the average experience level of the panels begin to rise.  Those are the folks that will make up the panels for the 3 days of championships.

Some like to "blame" DCI or the local show hosts for the 5 man panels.  The local shows really have no input.  DCI assigns the judges.  The idea of 5 man panels came from the DCI Board of Directors...made up of DCI corps directors.  Yes, the primary reason was to save some money...money that finds its way back to...THE CORPS.  I believe their thoughts were to have a few 8 man panels at the very beginning, go to 5 man panels for a short time (3 weeks or so), then back to full panels with the regionals and the last few weeks of the tour.

Makes total financial sense to me...and let's face it...a June score of 70 from an 8 man panel and a score of 70 from a 5 man panel mean NOTHING come mid July. 

 

 

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I have only taken the time to read a few of the rants on the scoring and the meaningful/meaningless... meaning found in them.

But it seems to me that the scores do show the same consistent positions and brackets... even if the spread dilates and contracts.  The competitive brackets are clear.

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6 hours ago, oldbandguy said:

Makes total financial sense to me...and let's face it...a June score of 70 from an 8 man panel and a score of 70 from a 5 man panel mean NOTHING come mid July. 

For an Old Band Guy, you're pretty smart.  :91_thumbsup:

Edited by wvu80
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6 hours ago, oldbandguy said:

I let's face it...a June score of 70 from an 8 man panel and a score of 70 from a 5 man panel mean NOTHING come mid July. 

 

 

 While true, they obviously DO matter to a lot people, otherwise we would not have the lengthy discussions on scores/ spreads/ placements until as you said... " mid July ". But the fact that we DO have such discussions, belies the point you are attempting to make here, imo.  People DO care about the scores/ spreads. placements before " Mid July " despite the fact that I would agree with you that they are of dubious value until about that time.

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6 hours ago, oldbandguy said:

I think too much is being made about "incomplete" panels and that they are basically worthless.  I would point out that
the placements and point spreads, this early in the season, would most likely change VERY little if you factored in the other 3 judges.  Even with the two 5 man panels the Bluecoats have now experienced, along with the two 8 man panels, not a lot has changed.

The 5 man panels have included a few judges that will be on the panels in Indy.  Getting their input this early is, to a degree, helpful. 

Often the early season panels include some less experienced judges that need the opportunity to, themselves, be evaluated.

As the season progresses and the regionals start happening you will see the average experience level of the panels begin to rise.  Those are the folks that will make up the panels for the 3 days of championships.

Some like to "blame" DCI or the local show hosts for the 5 man panels.  The local shows really have no input.  DCI assigns the judges.  The idea of 5 man panels came from the DCI Board of Directors...made up of DCI corps directors.  Yes, the primary reason was to save some money...money that finds its way back to...THE CORPS.  I believe their thoughts were to have a few 8 man panels at the very beginning, go to 5 man panels for a short time (3 weeks or so), then back to full panels with the regionals and the last few weeks of the tour.

Makes total financial sense to me...and let's face it...a June score of 70 from an 8 man panel and a score of 70 from a 5 man panel mean NOTHING come mid July. 

 

 

Agree. The partial panels are so for all corps. The biggest impact would be to not have a GE judge. Otherwise, you aren't going to see much if any difference between relative placements. Though, you could see a difference with total scores, since one of the judging requirements is to fundamentally place Corps relative to each other, as opposed to a perfect score.

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6 hours ago, oldbandguy said:

 

Some like to "blame" DCI or the local show hosts for the 5 man panels.  The local shows really have no input.  DCI assigns the judges.  . 

 

 

 So much misinformation. This is untrue. Show sponsors do indeed have a say in whether or not they want or receive full panels or partial panels at their shows. West coast show sponsors have requested them in the past.. were willing to foot the bill for it... and got DCI to approve it. So I don't know where you got your misinformation that " the local show sponsors have no input " on whether or not they full or partial panels, but thank you for at least proving me the opportunity to clear up that misinformation if its out there regarding show sponsors having a take it or leave proposition from DCI with " no input" on the matter. They do.

Edited by BRASSO
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If I were on staff, I'd appreciate a 5 panel in June...why...we just got the show on the field, maybe a week ago...I don't need a full panel coming at me from every direction, rather would appreciate some isolated feedback...this allows me to better and more effectively set up rehearsals, next show different panels...same thing. Tweak isolated areas until full panels...then start tweaking on a bigger picture. 

I'm good with that. 

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6 hours ago, oldbandguy said:

The 5 man panels have included a few judges that will be on the panels in Indy.  Getting their input this early is, to a degree, helpful. 

Often the early season panels include some less experienced judges that need the opportunity to, themselves, be evaluated.

Your point about trialing new/less experienced judges at early season shows is a good one. Nobody is going to be ready to judge a regional until they've first judged a bunch of smaller competitions.

The other point about early season judging is that corps are mostly looking for feedback on design & effect - does the show work? does it communicate what they think it does? where are there problems? how do people react to the big moments?

Sure, in an ideal world it'd be great to have a drum judge at every show. But the early season critiques are probably pretty obvious.

Judge: Your line is really dirty.

Caption head: We know, thanks.

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