Visual Schmizual

[Stu]

1 hour ago, phd-student-TTU said:

Of course they're designed to the sheets because the designers create the criteria. 

 

But I'm wanting to know specifics on design...what's difficult? What's excellent about the visuals now?

What you seek in difficulty 'definition' is not written on any sheet; it cannot be.  For it is within the desired creative eyes of the design team, combined with the personal observational aspects of a judge who desires the same interp, which defines ‘desired difficulty’.  For example, what has more difficult GE: playing qualitative melodic and harmonic content in time and in tune while marching a complex drill, or sustaining a solid non-wavering pitch along with a few musical blips here and there while engaging in the fast body athletic dance moves while rolling on the ground spinning around and running up a ramp? Currently the difficulty which is rewarded in DCI GE is the latter.  What is not humanly possible is to play qualitative musical melodic composition while engaging it that entire non-drill very athletic body dance roll on the ground run up the ramp movement we see today.  (This is also why in the realm of Pop/Rock, where the visual antics on stage have gotten so beyond the athletic, the singers are now lip-syncing and the musicians are finger-syncing to pre-recorded tracks).

And if the currently rewarded defined GE difficulty within DCI continues down the path of this wild fast punk speed Tai Chi body dance back-flip up the ramp running, it is likely that we will get to a point where a few stationary musicians will play into amplified mics while 140 will do their dance dittys the entire show, or it will go the way of Pop/Rock where they will 'all' lip-finger-sync to pre-recorded music so as to accommodate more and more and more of their non-drill very athletic body dance roll on the ground run up the ramp punk-speed Tai Chi movements.

Again, the definition of difficulty, and what aspect of the performance is desired to be difficult, are not written down on sheets; they are solely within the eyes of the design and judging teams.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Stu

[StarWasOverrated]

3 hours ago, Chief Guns said:

Cappy he is a troll. Don't take the bait. He was in the DCI West thread Sunday night contributing nothing but hate and discontent. The second he was exposed he went away. 

Well I don't have an apartment here at DCP headquarters. So when you disagree with something it's "hate". So dramatic. Saying I'm contributing nothing seems a little hateful. My feelings are hurt. 

[StarWasOverrated]

4 hours ago, Cappybara said:

I do like Phantom Regiment. Is there an issue with that?

Why would I have an issue with you liking Phantom Regiment? Do you have an issue with me not having an issue with you liking Phantom Regiment?

[Stu]

27 minutes ago, StarWasOverrated said:

Why would I have an issue with you liking Phantom Regiment? Do you have an issue with me not having an issue with you liking Phantom Regiment?

Ummmm…. The sarcastic statement first posted by you proves that you certainly do have an issue with someone liking Regiment. (see below)

12 hours ago, StarWasOverrated said:

That sounds incredibly boring. You must like Phantom Regiment.

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Stu

[cfirwin3]

2 hours ago, phd-student-TTU said:

Of course they're designed to the sheets because the designers create the criteria. 

 

But I'm wanting to know specifics on design...what's difficult? What's excellent about the visuals now?

It's a mistake to make "excellence" synonymous with "difficulty".

They can be, and often are, related or connected in the adjudication... but they aren't synonymous.

The judging sheets differentiate between two categories for every caption.  The first category deals with composition or design.  The second deals with execution and performance.  This is difficult to the question because the quality of the composition doesn't have to hinge on the presence of a superior difficulty.  Likewise, the performance element is referenced mostly by the composition... it also doesn't necessarily hinge on the presence of a superior level of difficulty.

The composition element is a score that reflects the effectiveness and coherence of the program (these are audience-centric principles, contrary to the feelings of some) at an appropriate level (which only partly points to difficulty).  The performance component is a score that reflects the the effectiveness and coherence (quality and accuracy) of the performance of the composition (which also only partly points to difficulty).

The search for a listing of the equivalent of a quadruple axle vs. a triple is not at all how drumcorps programming adjudication works.  The comparison of programs depends far more on the coherence and form of the design (which is certainly subjective, but also built on decades of a progressing vocabulary).

Is it possible for a super difficult program to be bested by a more simple one?... Yes.

Is it fair?... Absolutely.

Do we all agree?... Rarely... but the vast majority of the viewership tends to favor the eventual winner.

[phd-student-TTU]

1 hour ago, cfirwin3 said:

It's a mistake to make "excellence" synonymous with "difficulty".

They can be, and often are, related or connected in the adjudication... but they aren't synonymous.

The judging sheets differentiate between two categories for every caption.  The first category deals with composition or design.  The second deals with execution and performance.  This is difficult to the question because the quality of the composition doesn't have to hinge on the presence of a superior difficulty.  Likewise, the performance element is referenced mostly by the composition... it also doesn't necessarily hinge on the presence of a superior level of difficulty.

The composition element is a score that reflects the effectiveness and coherence of the program (these are audience-centric principles, contrary to the feelings of some) at an appropriate level (which only partly points to difficulty).  The performance component is a score that reflects the the effectiveness and coherence (quality and accuracy) of the performance of the composition (which also only partly points to difficulty).

The search for a listing of the equivalent of a quadruple axle vs. a triple is not at all how drumcorps programming adjudication works.  The comparison of programs depends far more on the coherence and form of the design (which is certainly subjective, but also built on decades of a progressing vocabulary).

Is it possible for a super difficult program to be bested by a more simple one?... Yes.

Is it fair?... Absolutely.

Do we all agree?... Rarely... but the vast majority of the viewership tends to favor the eventual winner.

So what are composition elements that make a show visually excellent?

[Stu]

28 minutes ago, phd-student-TTU said:

So what are composition elements that make a show visually excellent?

Whatever visual composition elements that are generally accepted between the designers and judges at any given moment in the DCI competitive arena is what defines excellence; it is something that is 100% subjective. Excelence in excicution of action has quantitative measurable reference aspects, defining excellence in art composition is mere opinion in which the only opinion that matters comes from those with the authority to make those decisions. And anyone posting on here who is not 'directly involved' in currently making those decisions for DCI really cannot answer you question with any authority other than voicing their own opinion.

[phd-student-TTU]

45 minutes ago, Stu said:

Whatever visual composition elements that are generally accepted between the designers and judges at any given moment in the DCI competitive arena is what defines excellence; it is something that is 100% subjective. Excelence in excicution of action has quantitative measurable reference aspects, defining excellence in art composition is mere opinion in which the only opinion that matters comes from those with the authority to make those decisions. And anyone posting on here who is not 'directly involved' in currently making those decisions for DCI really cannot answer you question with any authority other than voicing their own opinion.

Well ####. 

[Stu]

38 minutes ago, phd-student-TTU said:

Well ####. 

You quite possibly have just written the most honest post ever to appear in a DCP thread!

[cfirwin3]

5 hours ago, Stu said:

Whatever visual composition elements that are generally accepted between the designers and judges at any given moment in the DCI competitive arena is what defines excellence; it is something that is 100% subjective. Excelence in excicution of action has quantitative measurable reference aspects, defining excellence in art composition is mere opinion in which the only opinion that matters comes from those with the authority to make those decisions. And anyone posting on here who is not 'directly involved' in currently making those decisions for DCI really cannot answer you question with any authority other than voicing their own opinion.

Pretty much exactly what we are both saying.  You can't define a list of moves and licks.

Accept to say that there is often a continuum of fan (or cynic) type that goes from accepting that the judges actually care about the audience (and accounts for them in GE) to asserting that the judges don't give two shoots about the audience (yet they somehow tend to agree with each other through magic or conspiracy).

Edited July 1, 2017 by cfirwin3