Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, afd said: Again you support my point. Thx. You took time to insult me by calling me pathetic, and you continue to take time to jab at me, so what is your point about waisting too much time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afd Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Stu said: You took time to insult me by calling me pathetic, and you continue to take time to jab at me, so what is your point about waisting too much time... 2 minutes ago, Stu said: You took time to insult me by calling me pathetic, and you continue to take time to jab at me, so what is your point about waisting too much time... You are so correct. I'm wasting my time. Bye stu. Try to enjoy this activity. I know it's hard. Edited July 10, 2017 by afd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 10 hours ago, Candid Insight said: Although I am new to DCP I have been involved in the activity as a marching member, instructor, arranger, and judge for over 4 decades (brass). Because of that, I have seen the transitions the activity has made and the posts in this thread reflect a breadcrumb trail of the progression, plus the diverse perspectives people have regarding the design changes we now see. Although I am an older fan, I appreciate most of the innovation that we are seeing. Park and play has become a staple for corps for the 'compulsory' sixteenth note segments seemingly written into all all brass programs. Some corps do it (play while not moving) more than others (as noted with Blue Devils). Even the 'walking to the next set' approach is not particularly offensive to me if well coordinated and not drawn out. What seems a bit unfair is when one top 5 corps (Corps A) walks to the next set for their transitions and does a ton of park and play while another top 5 corps (Corps B) delivers a continuous orchestrated and difficult visual design, and much less park and play, yet Corps B gets lower scores. This seems to reward a corps for attempting less. An example from 2016 is Crown versus Blue Devils. Both corps performed at an extremely high level. Crown had very little 'park and play', and no significant walking to the next set in their show. The Blue Devils had significant 'park and play' and quite a bit of 'less organized' transitions. I appreciated both shows very much, but it seemed Crown got less credit in the content areas, specifically lower scores in Visual Analysis and Music Analysis. From my perspective, it seems easier to perform while stationary and visual sets that are 'free form' act as almost as a 'break' from the visual being judged. Some people will disagree and cite Blue Devils' less organized transitions are part of their design and should get higher credit. I enjoy a difficult brass passage played well, and I think doing that on the move should get more credit. Personal preferences are huge and artistry is very subjective, so I know many people have a totally different take on this. I am not saying that Crown should have been above Devils in overall scoring. I am just pointing to those specific scores. In my opinion, the brass books and performance levels were equivalent and since Crown attempted more they should not (in my opinion) have been under Devils in those specific captions. Many of my friends are highly critical of the Blue Devils for doing less yet scoring more. Some of them actually LOOK for where the Devils 'do less', even timing the amount of the park and play segments. I try to look past the scores and just appreciate the incredible performances of all the corps. My thanks to the original poster - this thread was interesting to read. This. I think it has more to do with influence and I dare say politics than anything else. The fact you can basically "tell" judges what is good and isn't OR tell them what is more "demand" and they go with it rather than making informed decision NOT based on what they are told but what they "KNOW". I know this won't be a popular response but you have to hand it to BD in the off season and the "training" they give to the judging community. Not to say BD isn't good or doesn't attract the some of best talent but that really means so little if instructors are doing their jobs. Frankly the amount of rehearsal over so little ensemble and brass playing anymore..you should be able to teach or instruct people to play VERY well with so much time IMHO. Off soapbox. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everyfan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Stu said: DCI has been, and still is, an inbred circular organization. Let’s walk through this: A) DCI is not a separate entity apart from the voting corps; DCI actually ‘is’ (David Gibbs, George Hopkins, David Glasgow, Chris Lugo, and all of the other Member Corps Directors with voting privileges). Heck, even Dan Acheson can only manage what those Corps Directors tell him to manage. B) DCI, as in these Voting Members, get together periodically to adjust and set the rules 'to their own collective pleasure', define the adjudicating criteria 'according to their own collective pleasure', and also dictate how the judging sheets will be interpreted by the adjudicators. C) Then the Directors like Gibbs of BD, Glasgow of Coats, etc… go to their respective Corps and have their own corps design teams construct shows designed to match the artistic direction criteria 'in which they themselves just set as the standard to achieve'. Directors who do not follow this path of show design construction do so at their own peril, or they just flat do not care about the competitive aspects of the institution (see Jersey Surf and Pioneer). D) The DCI trained adjudicators (as in trained to the directives of the Member Corps Directors standards and who themselves are mostly former DCI corps performers and staff members), are to fairly assess the performances each season based on that year's sheet definitions prescribed by DCI (the voting Corps Directors); it matters not the final ranking so long as the judges fairly evaluated each performance according to the sheet and design standards set forth by DCI (the voting Corps Directors). E) Thus while the Directors in DCI do not collectively design specific individual corps shows, DCI ‘is’ the voting Directors like Gibbs, etc…, and DCI certainly does dictate the direction of what design philosophy will progress forward in scoring within DCI. Therein is the inbred circular situation concerning the direction of show designs being under the control of DCI. Much as with your "facts" about attendance levels, you may want to look up who the director/CEO of the Blue Devils is. Hint: It is no longer Dave Gibbs. Edited July 10, 2017 by Everyfan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Mello Dude said: This. I think it has more to do with influence and I dare say politics than anything else. The fact you can basically "tell" judges what is good and isn't OR tell them what is more "demand" and they go with it rather than making informed decision NOT based on what they are told but what they "KNOW". I know this won't be a popular response but you have to hand it to BD in the off season and the "training" they give to the judging community. Not to say BD isn't good or doesn't attract the some of best talent but that really means so little if instructors are doing their jobs. Frankly the amount of rehearsal over so little ensemble and brass playing anymore..you should be able to teach or instruct people to play VERY well with so much time IMHO. Off soapbox. BD has had the most loyal staff of any corps, they work well with each other, their various individual skill sets concerning design and instruction compliment each other. That combined with a director who is a leader at the rules conference and also who does transfer the philosophical show constructs well to the adjudicators propels them into receiving high GE design credit each season. Edited July 10, 2017 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Everyfan said: Much as with your "facts" about attendance levels, you may want to look up who the director/CEO of the Blue Devils is. Hine: It is no longer Dave Gibbs. I stand corrected on the Director, but there is no denying that far less local shows means far less show attendance. Edited July 10, 2017 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everyfan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, Mello Dude said: This. I think it has more to do with influence and I dare say politics than anything else. The fact you can basically "tell" judges what is good and isn't OR tell them what is more "demand" and they go with it rather than making informed decision NOT based on what they are told but what they "KNOW". I know this won't be a popular response but you have to hand it to BD in the off season and the "training" they give to the judging community. Not to say BD isn't good or doesn't attract the some of best talent but that really means so little if instructors are doing their jobs. Frankly the amount of rehearsal over so little ensemble and brass playing anymore..you should be able to teach or instruct people to play VERY well with so much time IMHO. Off soapbox. If I understand your post correctly: 1) BD "trains" judges during the off season. 2) Talent doesn't matter. Anyone can be trained to be at the top level of DCI. Wow. Also, I don't think you understand how little corps practice together before move in happens in May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everyfan Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Just now, Stu said: I stand corrected on June, but there is no denying that far less local shows means far less show attendance. How many is far less. Where are you getting your numbers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Everyfan said: How many is far less. Where are you getting your numbers? Get online at sites like From the Pressbox that have scoring results from shows year to year. You will discover that there used to be way more local shows going on each week throughout the country. Also check out sites like CorpsReps that will give you an indication at how many corps there actually were competing during those years. More local shows each week, more corps that create more family/friends associated with those corps, equates to more fans attending shows; Less local shows each week, less corps competing, equates to less fans and family/friends attending shows. While there were no official numbers collected at all of those local shows, reason indicates there are less fans attending the overall combined shows today than years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 31 minutes ago, Everyfan said: If I understand your post correctly: 1) BD "trains" judges during the off season. 2) Talent doesn't matter. Anyone can be trained to be at the top level of DCI. Wow. Also, I don't think you understand how little corps practice together before move in happens in May. A) Change ‘train judges’ over to ‘explain show design to judges’ and it certainly is true that corps staff have been doing that for over forty years. It used to be done in Critiques after the shows each week. Now the corps staff conveys many design descriptions to the GE adjudicators pre-season, and may also continue to do this during the season. And BD has become The Master at explaining their concepts. B) Talent does matter. But the high talent level of performers and staff at the top level DCI corps are so close today that the communication skill set in transferring design concepts to the GE adjudicators is extremely vital. Again BD is The Master at that communication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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