Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design

[luv4corps]

58 minutes ago, Stu said:

Remember, to be 'pandering' the citations have to show the advocation for, and complete promotion of, designing shows to the mindless pop culture along with a lack of regard for those who seek intellectual stimuli. Otherwise it is neither 'pandering' nor 'advocating' but just seeking a better balance between the simple and the complex.

Well, with that criteria, I'm not going to bother.  With the usage of the word pandering I NEVER MEANT the complete promotion of mindless pop culture with the lack of regard for those who seek intellectual stimuli.  That is just silly.

My point is simple:  Don't design shows based only on mass appeal.  That's all I really meant and I see no reason to debate this fact.  I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in feeling that way.  If pandering was too strong a word, so be it.  But when I have a moment I am going to find the post that triggered me.  I said I like to be edified when I watch drum corps. It is perfectly FINE for me to like to be edified.  Isn't that the same as seeking intellectual stimuli?  Someone jumped all over me for saying that.  Was that you?

Edited July 30, 2017 by luv4corps

[Stu]

3 hours ago, luv4corps said:

Well, with that criteria, I'm not going to bother.  With the usage of the word pandering I NEVER MEANT the complete promotion of mindless pop culture with the lack of regard for those who seek intellectual stimuli.  That is just silly.

My point is simple:  Don't design shows based only on mass appeal.  That's all I really meant and I see no reason to debate this fact.  I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in feeling that way.  If pandering was too strong a word, so be it.  But when I have a moment I am going to find the post that triggered me.  I said I like to be edified when I watch drum corps. It is perfectly FINE for me to like to be edified.  Isn't that the same as seeking intellectual stimuli?  Someone jumped all over me for saying that.  Was that you?

If you believe it was me and search through my postings to find your trigger you will find that all of them are in context with what I posted about Angels and Demons having a perfect balance between entertainment and edification. And if you find one of me disagreeing with any sort of edification, it was for the shows designed mainly to edify the audience and promote the deigners own self-serving progression of the art form, which also caught the ire of Ceserio.  Nowhere will you find that I advocated for shows completely designed for the masses entertainment and to disregard those who also like to think while watching.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Stu

[LSU GRAD 82]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 3:15 PM, mirrormen said:

Three issues on which I would LOVE to hear other’s opinions:

Do they care if the audience likes it? Should a show require multiple critiques for the judges to learn about the show design intent before they can enjoy/reward the show design efforts fully? What about me- the paying audience member that wants to like BD better, but too often feels shut out of the show too frequently over the course of the show. The park and barks are usually well executed and sometimes exciting. There are at times additional moments that carry engagement and some emotional value. As soon as these moments seem to be flowing well, bam, we are taken 180 into something unrelated. The unexpected turn or twist can be an effect. I do not ever think such is their ammo. If seeing a film, or play, or ballet, or opera, etc. the careful crafting of every moment seems the goal. If they want people to see, hear, respect, and hopefully repeat viewings, it is the careful and thoughtful crafting that elevates the effect and the second ticket or recording or DVD bought. 

 

 

Different strokes for different folks.

As an "Old School Drum & BUGLE Corps" guy, I LOVE the "Park and Barks."

"Squat and Blows" were a strong component of 70's/80's/90's "In your Face" D&BC" and all of us from the Jurassic Era miss that.

Just rear back and blow those G Bugles SFZ. We wanted, expected and anticipated it at every show.  

BTW, I notice very few Adults at shows today. It's 90% high school and college Bando's.

Most of us from Jurassic Park have been so alienated, that we don't go to shows any longer.

I still do, just so I can keep up with what's current in the "Marching Musical Theater and Yoga" activity. 

Many don't waste their time anymore though because they have no interest in the entire "Film, Play, Ballet, Opera" on a football field thing.

I'm one of the dwindling few from the "S.E.C. Football" Drum Corps days that still attend a few shows over the Summer.  

Blue Devils 2017 gives us a little bit of what we enjoyed.  

Hey, throw us a bone every now and then because we're starving!.........................

     

 

[Stu]

On 07/25/2017 at 2:59 PM, Jeff Ream said:

football is very different. it's faster, it's harder hitting, offensive and defensive styles have changed drastically, instant replay and challenges, who you can hit and how...lots of changes.

The following was rather fun, and I challenge anyone to do this; but I mainly did it out of curiosity to test the differences in viewpoint between Jeff and myself.

On Saturday evening I invited over a number of friends who like both music and sports and told them that I would provide them with some BBQ in exchange for watching an evening of videos along with voicing some commentary.  They agreed… provided that the food was going to be stellar! Anyway, after they arrived and we began to chow down I turned on the 52” Flat Screen with surround sound and connected it to YouTube.  Then the experiment began (note that while I did tell them this was an experiment, I did not give them any per-conceived hint whatsoever as to my own hypothesis).

We watched some 1972 through 1976 DCI video excerpts, trying to just watch professional recorded shows when possible; and we also watched excerpts of DCI shows from 2012 through 2016.   We then watched some 1972 through 1976 NFL excerpts, along with some 2012 through 2016 NFL coverage.  (and by the way, the food did need to be stellar for them to do this willingly, if any of y'all want to try this!) Anyway, after that I asked everyone to provide some commentary based on what they had just watched and heard.

DCI: Aside from the video and audio quality differences, they all noted some minor similarities between the two eras like brass, drums, flags, etc.... However, the overwhelming opinion from everyone was that while they realized they were watching DCI, the shows and designs were so vastly, massively, and immensely different from one era to the other it looked and sounded to them like the activity was morphing into something different than it was in the seventies.

NFL: Again aside from the audio and video quality difference, there were some noted differences in types of play calls and some rule changes were commented on like the two point conversion and a few others.  But in this case the overwhelming opinion was that they were certain that they were watching the exact same activity; that the NFL has not changed all that much in forty years, especially compared to DCI, and in fact, here is the real kicker, if it were not for the audio and video quality differences much of the early seventies action could have been mistaken as recent action. Doh!!!

Anyway, this was just for fun to find out the opinions of other people and not to be claimed in any way shape or form as being fact.  Comments from y’all are welcome; even those who will claim that I have too much time on my hands. Which, by the way, is a rather good song by Styx.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Stu

[ThePlanets]

So...I read a lot about how the blue devils' shows are intellectually stimulating... sophisticated...etc...and aren't written for the "average fan" to enjoy.

So I can have a point of reference...can someone cite some shows that are "written for the average fan" or that aren't intellectually stimulating, or that do "appeal to the masses?"

[brichtimp]

11 minutes ago, ThePlanets said:

So...I read a lot about how the blue devils' shows are intellectually stimulating... sophisticated...etc...and aren't written for the "average fan" to enjoy.

So I can have a point of reference...can someone cite some shows that are "written for the average fan" or that aren't intellectually stimulating, or that do "appeal to the masses?"

BD's Bacharach show from 2011? was not an intellectual exercise...I think 'avg' viewers could enjoy the tuneful arrangements, etc.

[ThePlanets]

21 minutes ago, brichtimp said:

BD's Bacharach show from 2011? was not an intellectual exercise...I think 'avg' viewers could enjoy the tuneful arrangements, etc.

I was thinking maybe 12.25 from the cadets...which was a very fun unique show...but it was Christmas standards with fun shapes and pictures!

[DrumCorpsRadio]

6 hours ago, LSU GRAD 82 said:

BTW, I notice very few Adults at shows today. It's 90% high school and college Bando's.

Most of us from Jurassic Park have been so alienated, that we don't go to shows any longer.

I still do, just so I can keep up with what's current in the "Marching Musical Theater and Yoga" activity. 

Many don't waste their time anymore though because they have no interest in the entire "Film, Play, Ballet, Opera" on a football field thing.

    

 

I have been to three shows in three different regions so far this year (Massillon, Ohio; Michigan City, Indiana; Pasadena, California) and did not find this to be true at all. In all three cases, I bought the best tickets available through the official show source and in all three cases I was surrounded by older crowds. In Indiana, I was smack in the middle of a section of about 10-15 long-time supporters of The Cavaliers, some sporting corps jackets back into the 1970s. Before the show and in-between corps, discussion was always about the history of the activity and reverence for both that history and the unbelievable performances being put on today. I found it incredibly refreshing. This is one of the main reasons why I set a budget for DCI attendance and plan my summer around it carefully, so that I can afford to sit in the seats where the majority of people are similar in their focus. Very few people pay the premium price without wanting to be 100% engaged in what is happening.

As an aside, I have found that driving out of my region (New York metropolitan area) for shows is often cheaper even when factoring in a hotel stay to have this experience. The best available tickets in Ohio and Indiana, for example, where less than 1/3 the best available tickets for Clifton, NJ or Chester, PA.

[JKT90]

37 minutes ago, ThePlanets said:

So...I read a lot about how the blue devils' shows are intellectually stimulating... sophisticated...etc...and aren't written for the "average fan" to enjoy.

So I can have a point of reference...can someone cite some shows that are "written for the average fan" or that aren't intellectually stimulating, or that do "appeal to the masses?"

Pick any VK show :-)

[DrumCorpsRadio]

4 hours ago, Stu said:

The following was rather fun, and I challenge anyone to do this; but I mainly did it out of curiosity to test the differences in viewpoint between Jeff and myself.

On Saturday evening I invited over a number of friends who like both music and sports and told them that I would provide them with some BBQ in exchange for watching an evening of videos along with voicing some commentary.  They agreed… provided that the food was going to be stellar! Anyway, after they arrived and we began to chow down I turned on the 52” Flat Screen with surround sound and connected it to YouTube.  Then the experiment began (note that while I did tell them this was an experiment, I did not give them any per-conceived hint whatsoever as to my own hypothesis).

We watched some 1972 through 1976 DCI video excerpts, trying to just watch professional recorded shows when possible; and we also watched excerpts of DCI shows from 2012 through 2016.   We then watched some 1972 through 1976 NFL excerpts, along with some 2012 through 2016 NFL coverage.  (and by the way, the food did need to be stellar for them to do this willingly, if any of y'all want to try this!) Anyway, after that I asked everyone to provide some commentary based on what they had just watched and heard.

DCI: Aside from the video and audio quality differences, they all noted some minor similarities between the two eras like brass, drums, flags, etc.... However, the overwhelming opinion from everyone was that while they realized they were watching DCI, the shows and designs were so vastly, massively, and immensely different from one era to the other it looked and sounded to them like the activity was morphing into something different than it was in the seventies.

NFL: Again aside from the audio and video quality difference, there were some noted differences in types of play calls and some rule changes were commented on like the two point conversion and a few others.  But in this case the overwhelming opinion was that they were certain that they were watching the exact same activity; that the NFL has not changed all that much in forty years, especially compared to DCI, and in fact, here is the real kicker, if it were not for the audio and video quality differences much of the early seventies action could have been mistaken as recent action. Doh!!!

Anyway, this was just for fun to find out the opinions of other people and not to be claimed in any way shape or form as being fact.  Comments from y’all are welcome; even those who will claim that I have too much time on my hands. Which, by the way, is a rather good song by Styx.

For the record, I tend to enjoy your posts and your willingness to recognize others' points when they change your thinking. Far too little of that these days.

This is an interesting discussion starter and is leading to some cognitive dissonance for me. The statistics about the incredible popularity of the NFL are pretty readily available. According to The Harris Poll, the NFL has been the most popular professional sport league in the United States for 30+ years with a widening margin having barely edged out MLB in the beginning and now winning by over 20%. So what has changed to allow the NFL to get a greater market share of entertainment time, attention and money from fans in an ever-growing marketplace? Was it just TV coverage (which should not be undervalued)? Does it have something to do with how the game has turned from the grunt-work of running to the excitement of passing? 

Perhaps this is too narrow of a comparison or even the wrong one altogether. Was there a similar activity that was mostly niche in the early-mid 1970s and is now completely mainstream? Perhaps something like competitive cheerleading? I don't know, but it may not be the right comparison when the NFL was already in the national consciousness and with national media attention.