Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design

[chaddyt]

1 hour ago, mirrormen said:

Three issues on which I would LOVE to hear other’s opinions:

 

Chop and Paste: Isn’t there artistic skill, craft, ingeniousness to developing a show that flows in a way that makes sense to your eyes and ears? Especially if YOU GET TO CHOOSE the show theme and name the production whatever you want? I know that not everyone’s eyes and ears, judge training, likes and dislikes/personal tastes, allow everyone to discern corps’ shows in the same way or at the same level, but the cut and paste approach of BD is distracting to me. It doesn’t mean there are not things about them I do like and appreciate- and there are years I felt the deserved to win. It seems that no one else either chooses to do, or gets to do such in the same way BD designs shows. I get that the talent level is stupid high and that they perform so well etc. Is it simply their style and you like it or don’t? They often go right from one style to the next, one tune to the next, with no set up, no connection to the show theme, etc.  I know I have lost of other corps to enjoy, but I really do want better appreciate what they do. 

I won't comment on the park and bark, because I would tend to agree this year seems to have its fair share of it.

But in terms of design, I think you're way off.  It took me quite a few years to come around to it, but nothing that the Blue Devils design team does is divorced of their show concept.  Every last detail is thought through.  You may not like it or may not get it, but it's all there for a reason.  

If you want a great look into how this corps puts together their shows, check out their BD360 series on YouTube.  It is extremely well done.

[jwillis35]

If I can be somewhat broader in my answer to this, I think we understand the chop & paste, park & bark, stage & act or dance a lot better by reviewing what happened in the late 80s and through the 90s. 

There was a time when the "concert number" (a standstill performance) was a part of a drum corps show, and believe it or not there was a time we loved it. Garfield's 83 show changed lots of things, but it was their 1984 show that flowed so seamlessly and never stopped for a concert number. Phantom, BD, SCV, and others all had full or partial concert numbers in 1984 (as did most others), but not Garfield. It wasn't just speed that became a signature of the Cadets, but it was the flow of the show, the constant motion and movement from segment to segment without too much stopping. 

As the 80s pushed on, speeds increased and drills became even more complicated. The 1990s, and in particular 1992 - 1999, were the decade of speedy drill. The "whiplash" movement as I often call it.  One only needs to go watch Star of Indiana 1991, 1992, 1993.  The Cadets 1990 - 1999. Even BD, Phantom, Madison, SCV and others joined in. But ultimately we saw drill pushed to its max, and often times not so cleanly.  Demand was all the rage and being clean seemed secondary.  I loved the 1990s but I know I was ready for a change.

The Cavaliers introduced a subtle change in the 2000s with speedy drill done in a minimalist and layered way. It was very kaleidoscopic (like their late 80s and 90s drill was) but with faster set changes yet more manageable step sizes and control of form. They often wrote around the guard.  They dominated the early 2000s, winning 5 titles in 7 years from 2000 - 2006.  

In 2008 things changed once again with Blue Devils introducing a new style, slightly modified from their 90s style, but with less emphasis on traditional drill and more on staging, play acting, body movement, dance, and a guard-driven approach.  Even more so, however, were little things like how they handled tempo transitions, key changes, and how they featured sections of the corps. Now, in fairness, BD was always good at not following the whiplash movement; but in 2008 it was like they said "we want to rethink traditional drill and guard integration."  They did. They have since refined this style. In my opinion they have hit pure magic with it during the 2010, 2014, 2015 shows. Their 2016 production was pretty darn good as well, as was 2009.  Their 2015 show, to me, is a taste of BD at their best. 

Sometimes they are able to chop and paste a lot of goodness into a show and make it work, even make it special. Sometimes I feel they miss the mark, even if they score well. As for this year, I would not count out this show.  I watched their Rose Bowl video (on YT) and also watch SCV, and to me the Blue Devils are packing more punch in music and even in visual during the first 5 or 6 minutes. SCV packs more punch visually late in the show, and musically they are about even. However, I believe BD is slowly adding the visual pieces to the back end. I saw some changes from Stanford that were fantastic, and I do believe once they complete the show it will be wonderful. Maybe a stunner. All depends on what they do. 

Admittedly, I think the OP brings up a good point. BD's style of design is dicey. Packing so much into a show and getting the music to settle and flow is difficult. Throw in the staging, drill, guard, and props and this is where we are today in DCI.

In a nutshell, when BD gets it right, it's downright magical!  But there have been those years where the music and total visual felt like someone rambling about nothing for 2 hours. We just notice this more with BD because of their exceptional performance levels, but there are plenty of shows that fail to connect musically or visually and for which the total design is haphazard and overly spliced to pieces.  

Edited July 9, 2017 by jwillis35

[mirrormen]

14 minutes ago, chaddyt said:

I won't comment on the park and bark, because I would tend to agree this year seems to have its fair share of it.

But in terms of design, I think you're way off.  It took me quite a few years to come around to it, but nothing that the Blue Devils design team does is divorced of their show concept.  Every last detail is thought through.  You may not like it or may not get it, but it's all there for a reason.  

If you want a great look into how this corps puts together their shows, check out their BD360 series on YouTube.  It is extremely well done.

Thanks for the tip. I will check out the BD360 series. That said, should I need a lot of coaching to get it? Someone can tell me a reason for a design choice, but that doesn't mean it works well, or even works at all. Three examples that immediately come to mind: last year's blue tarp. Great opening effect. 35 seconds of distraction watching it dragged to the back field. I do not think how they got rid of it was the best artistic choice. Three rifles walk with their back to you through the opening hit of 2014 to get back to the front hash. Not effective whether someone tells me that Fellini had three sons, or three statues at his house, or whatever reason, It looks like the decided they needed those three rifle guys back there for the next section, didn't plan for it initially, so they walk through the form to get where they needed to be for the next section.  The fact that they are walking through the brass block with their back to us while the rest of the guard is staged mid field creates a lot of question, and not what the audio was saying. After this year's trombone feature, the corps immediately breaks into swing, out of nowhere. A friend who marched BD told me that because the show is about the corps metamorphosis over the years and they use to play a lot of jazz, that is why that moment is in this year's show. Ok, I get the connection historically, but not based on where my emotions were just two seconds earlier. 

[mirrormen]

16 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

If I can be somewhat broader in my answer to this, I think we understand the chop & paste, park & bark, stage & act or dance a lot better by reviewing what happened in the late 80s and through the 90s. 

There was a time when the "concert number" (a standstill performance) was a part of a drum corps show, and believe it or not there was a time we loved it. Garfield's 83 show changed lots of things, but it was their 1984 show that flowed so seamlessly and never stopped for a concert number. Phantom, BD, SCV, and others all had full or partial concert numbers in 1984 (as did most others), but not Garfield. It wasn't just speed that became a signature of the Cadets, but it was the flow of the show, the constant motion and movement from segment to segment without too much stopping. 

As the 80s pushed on, speeds increased and drills became even more complicated. The 1990s, and in particular 1992 - 1999, were the decade of speedy drill. The "whiplash" movement as I often call it.  One only needs to go watch Star of Indiana 1991, 1992, 1993.  The Cadets 1990 - 1999. Even BD, Phantom, Madison, SCV and others joined in. But ultimately we saw drill pushed to its max, and often times not so cleanly.  Demand was all the rage and being clean seemed secondary.  I loved the 1990s but I know I was ready for a change.

The Cavaliers introduced a subtle change in the 2000s with speedy drill done in a minimalist and layered way. It was very kaleidoscopic (like their late 80s and 90s drill was) but with faster set changes yet more manageable step sizes and control of form. They often wrote around the guard.  They dominated the early 2000s, winning 5 titles in 7 years from 2000 - 2006.  

In 2008 things changed once again with Blue Devils introducing a new style, slightly modified from their 90s style, but with less emphasis on traditional drill and more on staging, play acting, body movement, dance, and a guard-driven approach.  Even more so, however, were little things like how they handled tempo transitions, key changes, and how they featured sections of the corps. Now, in fairness, BD was always good at not following the whiplash movement; but in 2008 it was like they said "we want to rethink traditional drill and guard integration."  They did. They have since refined this style. In my opinion they have hit pure magic with it during the 2010, 2014, 2015 shows. Their 2016 production was pretty darn good as well, as was 2009.  Their 2015 show, to me, is a taste of BD at their best. 

Sometimes they are able to chop and paste a lot of goodness into a show and make it work, even make it special. Sometimes I feel they miss the mark, even if they score well. As for this year, I would not count out this show.  I watched their Rose Bowl video (on YT) and also watch SCV, and to me the Blue Devils are packing more punch in music and even in visual during the first 5 or 6 minutes. SCV packs more punch visually late in the show, and musically they are about even. However, I believe BD is slowly adding the visual pieces to the back end. I saw some changes from Stanford that were fantastic, and I do believe once they complete the show it will be wonderful. Maybe a stunner. All depends on what they do. 

Admittedly, I think the OP brings up a good point. BD's style of design is dicey. Packing so much into a show and getting the music to settle and flow is difficult. Throw in the staging, drill, guard, and props and this is where we are today in DCI -- or maybe it's where we were.

I say that because The Bluecoats of Canton, OH have changed the game much the way BD did in 2008. You can make a case that what Bluecoats do is similar to Devils, but it's really quite different.  I think BD's staff knows this and that is why they waited to finalize their visual.  For the next 4 to 7 years we will see the Bluecoats effect on DCI. That is not to say other corps will not have some influence. They will, just like 27th Lancers and SCV complimented Garfield's approach in the 80s.  The same way Star of Indiana and Cavaliers complimented The Cadets approach in the 90s.  

In a nutshell, when BD gets it right, it's downright magical!  But there have been those years where the music and total visual felt like someone rambling about nothing for 2 hours. We just notice this more with BD because of their exceptional performance levels, but there are plenty of shows that fail to connect musically or visually and for which the total design is haphazard and overly spliced to pieces.  

Thanks so much. All this makes a lot of sense and I have been around for some of it. I do know that I think I am also comparing and holding BD to a standard they set, which in a way may be unfair. It is like expecting Bluecoats to be better than last year (which I think they are). It is a really tall order and a pretty crazy thing to ask of the new game changers. I Appreciate you not being condescending or preachy. I really am trying to up my appreciation for what they do.

Thanks again. 

[jwillis35]

Just now, mirrormen said:

Thanks so much. All this makes a lot of sense and I have been around for some of it. I do know that I think I am also comparing and holding BD to a standard they set, which in a way may be unfair. It is like expecting Bluecoats to be better than last year (which I think they are). It is a really tall order and a pretty crazy thing to ask of the new game changers. I Appreciate you not being condescending or preachy. I really am trying to up my appreciation for what they do.

Thanks again. 

You bet. I've been there myself. With corps like BD, Cadets, SCV, and now Bluecoats and Crown it is easy to get frustrated when a show does not click or seems like a run-on sentence with no point. You get frustrated because of the talent level in those groups.  In the end, however, I always try to find those moments that I love.  It's not easy to produce a classic every year. Even for the best drum corps you're lucky if you produce a classic once every five years.  

[BoaDci]

I know you all probably know this, but BD's visual is noticeably unfinished.  Lots of areas for improvement, that I'm sure that they will add on to.  They might still park n' bark a fair amount at finals, but it will not be NEARLY as bad as it is now.  Calling it chop and paste when it's still very unfinished is jumping the gun. Carry on.

[Standing O]

Im going to date my self big time but, BD used to be precision west.  Jay Murphy used to right such seamless drills, but lately?  Not such a big fan.  They continually get away with some of the worst transitions!

[Stu]

54 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

If I can be somewhat broader in my answer to this, I think we understand the chop & paste, park & bark, stage & act or dance a lot better by reviewing what happened in the late 80s and through the 90s.

In the 80’s – 90’s, for the most part, there was a very healthy balance between outstanding music arranging (like listening to a great wonderful and comprehensible Brass/Percussion arrangement of a particular musical masterpiece) combined with extremely wonderful and creative drill (like watching the work of stellar visual artist painting the field with amazement).

As we moved into Y2k forward somewhere down the line DCI show designs became more and more and more all about the Visual; not only in drill but in all definitions of ‘body-movement’.  To the point that the most important aspect today in terms of design seems to be the Visual Artist’s conversation with the audience via full-corps interpretive body-motion; and while there may be music compositions chosen as a basis, the sound and arrangement in a DCI show does not necessarily need to be ‘understandable' in the terms of music.

That is why today many shows have a ‘sound’ like this: Pit builds with Synth goo into fast playing, Brass Impact, Pit again, Brass Impact, another Brass Impact, Pit, Brass Chord, Battery plays their ditties,, Brass Impact, add in fast Pit to the fast Battery, add Brass fast playing on top going into a Brass Chord with much Synth goo, Full ensemble Impact, Full Ensemble Impact, Brass Chord decrescendo, and so forth.  Why?  Because even though the sound phrasing is disjunctive, and there is very little understandable melodic content, again the ‘sound’ is there in order to fulfill the real purpose which is enhancing the artistic movement and visual phrasing counts.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Stu

[Fred Windish]

Stu - your observations of drum corps' evolution into something "else" is always spot on!

 

[Stu]

53 minutes ago, Fred Windish said:

Stu - your observations of drum corps' evolution into something "else" is always spot on!

 

Thanks for the compliment! But to others here on DCP my opinion is also a spot on something else, as in a spot on the backside of my skivvies