The REAL San Antonio Rough Riders Thread

[Triple Forte]

15 minutes ago, mjoakes said:

Is there no subjectivity in judging?

If all subjectivity has been eliminated, then I can understand the persistent commentary on scores. It is worth picking apart the scores to see if they have been determined properly based on the mechanics.

If there is some subjectivity, even given parameters of the sheet design, then what's the basis for so much relentless promotion of someone's preference on GE or musical analysis, etc.? These scores are quite close. The corps' placements in groups of 2, 3, or 4, could be switched around a bit with no loss of genuine integrity of opinions; the posts points of view here on DCP would just switch, too.

I get that we all have favorites and that, even putting those aside, we can all also think through what seems to us the proper scoring. So it makes sense to assert that BC has better GE than BD. Or that Crown's horn line does more difficult stuff than BC. But if someone else disagrees, isn't there clearly room in all this for two well-considered points of view?

It's like some posters are in academic paper mode, hoping to prove in conference presentations their theory of drum corps life is objectively, demonstrably better than someone else's. Wow. That's a lot of unnecessary effort. Without vodka, anyway.

Well as a fan, what I wish for is s scoring system that does everything it can to at least subjective as possible. Unfortunately I don't think that is the case. The members are putting in a crazy amount of work and those efforts should be the focus on the sheets...not the designers.  

[jwillis35]

4 hours ago, Treefidy said:

BD being 2nd in both percussion categories tonight is laughable... They were easily 5th or worse tonight. EASILY.

Glad you were on the field to judge that last night. Please share your tapes and sheets so that DCPers can weigh in. :)

[Guardguy89]

4 hours ago, henry7184 said:

I can't get over these guard scores. Regiment 0.1 behind SCV and 0.5 ahead of Bluecoats. What a joke. Their book isn't even in the same league as those two in substance or achievement. Really - he should be fired.

Definitely the strangest guard scores this season - Boston and Crown in 7th and 8th is just wrong.  And Phantom should not be beating either of them.  

 

Mike

[Fred Windish]

7 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

If Bluecoats is going to medal they must build in some marching diversity. They took dci by storm last year with a beginning to end concept that just bowled everyone over, but clearly the judges aren't buying it this year. Say what you want but dci rewards diversity of performance skills over one overriding style from beginning to end. 

This is how I see it, too!  I feel as if I've been watching "that Bluecoats thing" for 4 years straight. Expecting something very different for next year, though. Bluecoats in 4th now is about right.

 

[jwillis35]

5 hours ago, pudding said:

Other corps have figured this out. Crown's version of imitating BD is by going down the "so abstract that even WE don't know what our show is about so figure it out for yourself" route. SCV's version is by spotlighting their battery because they know that it's their strongest section; also some new body work and let's mic our strongest brass players too. Bluecoats version is by integrating modern dance into their visual design (to mixed reviews) and by integrating modern electronic effects into their musical design (to much better reviews).

It's not so much that other corps haven't figured out how to demonstrate a "multitude of skills" (as you put it), it's just that they're not necessarily as practiced at either designing around or executing such demonstrations. BD figured it out back in 2008-2009, and have been honing their craft ever since. Crown got the message around 2013, Bluecoats in 2014-2015, SCV in 2015-2016. 

Not sure I can buy these comments. You are minimizing the contributions of Bluecoats, Crown, and SCV. 

Blue Devils have certainly developed a style of performance that integrates guard into the whole of the show. They treat visual much differently than others, and I think that's cool.  There is no doubt they have had an influence on others in the activity, but I believe what Crown, SCV, and Bloo are doing is quite different and equally special.  

BD's closest competitor (so far) this year is SCV. Santa Clara's show is way more than what you described above. They are marching a lot of drill that reminds me of Cavaliers early 2000s. Their brass book is edgy and powerful with lots of technical passages, both by the small ensemble and some by the full ensemble. The guard is very unique, and percussion top notch. They use their props more like Bluecoats have in recent years, and not just as stages or backdrops. There is very little in this show that speaks "we are imitating BD." 

Carolina Crown is perhaps marching the most traditional drill of the top 4. They still do their body movement, but that is not something they took from BD. They have been doing that for a while. Crown actually reminds me more of Cadets 2015. Really hard traditional drill, incredible brass, really good percussion, and solid GE that in the end may not be enough due to a good but not great guard book.  We shall see. Nonetheless, Crown is a dangerous corps with incredible performance capabilities and cleanliness.  There is nothing about Crown that speaks imitating BD. 

The Bluecoats have developed a style that is uniquely them, just as BD has.  The styles and influences present in Bluecoats seem to morph together from many sources. They have touches of old Madison Scout style brass presentation, Blast! style staging and movement, a more involving use of props, they layer rhythms and grooves in the music to the visual drill much the way Cavaliers did from 2000 - 2006 (sequencing as I call it), and their use of dance and electronics (as you mentioned) has been at the forefront of the activity.  Bloo is not imitating BD.  As great as BD is -- and I love them this year -- I think you will find that more corps are actually looking at Bluecoats and some of their ideas and concepts when it comes to designing shows. 

[MikeRapp]

5 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

Not sure I can buy these comments. You are minimizing the contributions of Bluecoats, Crown, and SCV. 

Blue Devils have certainly developed a style of performance that integrates guard into the whole of the show. They treat visual much differently than others, and I think that's cool.  There is no doubt they have had an influence on others in the activity, but I believe what Crown, SCV, and Bloo are doing is quite different and equally special.  

BD's closest competitor (so far) this year is SCV. Santa Clara's show is way more than what you described above. They are marching a lot of drill that reminds me of Cavaliers early 2000s. Their brass book is edgy and powerful with lots of technical passages, both by the small ensemble and some by the full ensemble. The guard is very unique, and percussion top notch. They use their props more like Bluecoats have in recent years, and not just as stages or backdrops. There is very little in this show that speaks "we are imitating BD." 

Carolina Crown is perhaps marching the most traditional drill of the top 4. They still do their body movement, but that is not something they took from BD. They have been doing that for a while. Crown actually reminds me more of Cadets 2015. Really hard traditional drill, incredible brass, really good percussion, and solid GE that in the end may not be enough due to a good but not great guard book.  We shall see. Nonetheless, Crown is a dangerous corps with incredible performance capabilities and cleanliness.  There is nothing about Crown that speaks imitating BD. 

The Bluecoats have developed a style that is uniquely them, just as BD has.  The styles and influences present in Bluecoats seem to morph together from many sources. They have touches of old Madison Scout style brass presentation, Blast! style staging and movement, a more involving use of props, they layer rhythms and grooves in the music to the visual drill much the way Cavaliers did from 2000 - 2006 (sequencing as I call it), and their use of dance and electronics (as you mentioned) has been at the forefront of the activity.  Bloo is not imitating BD.  As great as BD is -- and I love them this year -- I think you will find that more corps are actually looking at Bluecoats and some of their ideas and concepts when it comes to designing shows. 

I would say the main thing many corps have used that Blue Devils originally adapted is jazz walking and running. But that has been "allowed" by the judges, meaning not punished in the sheets. If you watch shows from the 80s and 90s, you will see no "scatter drill" or "jazz walking," corps marched in formations to get from one set to the next.

it was Cadets, in fact, that truly changed DCI by introducing asymmetrical formations.

Also, having playing members dramatically performing without instruments is way different, and was very controversial when DCI began to score it as "difficulty". 

 

[johnpendell]

My thoughts on tonight were... videos on phones can greatly negatively influence opinions...because every single corps I heard tonight was fantastic, in terms of sound.  I saw from Spirit on so, I'll give my thoughts on each. 

Spirit, great sound, I enjoyed them. Uniforms don't look so bad in person at all. I'd like more from them as an audience, nonetheless they were great.  

Pacific Crest, didn't like their uniforms, big whoop, their concept was easy to get and enjoy, impacts sounded awesome.

Troopers, I saw a couple people almost trip on all those tarps and not in a pretty graceful way they have heightened balance this far in I suppose lol. I enjoyed this show so much more than last year. Great job.

Mandarins, hello? So entertaining. Did anyone laugh but probably shouldn't have at the guard magic carpet looking outfits? I predicted 12th for them as soon as they ended.

The Academy, I loved their opener. The way they turned their horns to change the heaviness of the sound was so effective to me. The guard was thematic and fantastic! Velvet Knights sort of? This shows meant to be fun, and I think everyone gets that.

Colts, I felt a bit bleh about this show? I don't know what the concept they're trying to convey besides the name. Again, great performance.

Scouts, bad ###. Very aggressive, and powerful! Loudest corps I heard thus far. Drum corps purists you may hate me, but the uniforms are sick. They're all committing to this show. Why not?! My moms favorite show. Would have had them at 12th imo.

Crossmen, first and foremost the French horn soloist! Great job to her. Playing mello for 6-8 minutes then playing a cold concert horn extremely well is hard.. props. Good show, unfortunately nothing really stood out for me in big way, guess it's just personal preference.

Blue Stars, so I hate the concept, but they sold it to me like a con man lol. I had reservations about it, but seeing it live allowed me to see it differently and I really appreciate the story they're trying to tell.

Blue Knights, what can I say? Brass is so far ahead from where they were last year. I love their head strong approach to put out a product that won't necessarily score well (at this current time) but, indifferently, doing so amazing at what they do. So so unique and so underrated. Guard will get stronger after these recent changes = don't think phantom should get TOO confident. Some tech problems in the Mello and snare solos, tech problems seemed to happen a bit tonight with a few corps  

 Phantom, this show is by far my favorite phantom show in long time. Rachmaninov made my mom bawl... she so emotional...this show has so much meat musically and I was wowd the whole time.  I noticed the amplification.. and I honestly thought it was done right. I mean it's phantom... it's gonna be loud. But imagine... louder? I know all of us love drum corps for the loudness.  And it didn't seem so brash since it was the whole ensemble, not as forced, I suppose.

Cadets, I love the content of this show and whistle agnus dei to myself more than any other show moment...but it's a weird show. this show is what it is and I hope they'll just continue to progress and sell their product more! The choir seemed sort of turned down, tech probs or maybe previous videos were louder.. in places I couldn't really hear them. Thought using vocals for simple song seemed to make more sense. 

Cavaliers, within first minute even, I knew they'd win guard tonight. Fierceness!! They incorporate so much into the show... honestly watched more of them than anything. The corps came to impress. 

Bluecoats, that closer could be played on repeat for days.  Everything about it screams entertainment, fun, excitement, and innovation of course. I don't count them out at all, however, there was a bit of phasing in the opener, seems this has been a reoccurring problem (tech probs?) 

Boston, this show was.. wow. When dci says you can't make fire... make water vapor.  That brass was stellar.. sounded like cadets :( but nonetheless good for Boston. The guard was so so awesome. Reminds me a lot of crown 2016 in the story telling behind the show.

Crown, sounds like crown from the downbeat. There was a bit of phasing in the fugue, but that seemed to be the most noticeable oops from them the whole show. I'm so biased towards them so I'll just leave it at they were fantastic, before I try to make them sound like they're Jesus. They could win.  

SCV, a winning show. That drum line is a drum line that I will listen to over brass any day...don't really care for the ensemble amplification for the rest of the corps imo phantom is doing it better. The points really is to make the sound LOUDER  not just highlight a few people and blast them on impact chords. You can disagree it's fine we all feel how we feel. Love the guard uniforms. Overall a fantastic show with a slight flaw that I can't get over is all. They could also win.

BD, sucks the mic'ing was messing up tonight.. I heard the solos on the 11th row, that were ###### btw,  but I'm not sure people on the 3rd leaf did, which I'm sure was a bummer. I predicted them to win no doubt and will predict them to win at finals... not my favorite but by no means would I be mad about them winning. I feel the "haters gon hate" attitude BD has only makes the haters hate even more while BD simply excels. Ultimate reverse trolling. 

Amazing job to everyone tonight, what a year! 

[jwillis35]

6 hours ago, pudding said:

My problem is 100% with the sheets. The BD design staff have discovered precisely how to work the sheets, and are doing what they're doing to win. I can get that. However, I disagree philosophically with their decision to do so at the expense of accessibility, and I disagree vehemently with the layout of the sheets that allows them to make that decision in the first place.

To me, this is an insult to the Blue Devils and the judging community. People say this all the time, that BD designs to the sheets. I don't think so. Of course, what people often mean when they say this is that the Blue Devils found some loophole in the judging sheets and decided to exploit it for scores. That somehow they are willing to exploit a loophole in the sheets for easy numbers.  When you have the most championships there will be more criticism. I get that.   

Then there are those saying BD is too formulaic and that they are not pushing the activity. Nothing wrong with formulas. Crown has one. The Cavaliers used a formula to great success in the 90s and early 2000s. The Cadets used one for decades -- to great success.  A formula is a great thing.  The Madison Scouts used to thrill fans and light-up stadiums around the country because of a formula.  The Bluecoats finally won a DCI title because of a cool formula.  

Why is it that many seem to feel the leaders in the activity should always be pushing the envelope? There is nothing in the sheets that say you have to do that. Push too hard, change too much, and experiment too often and one can lose their identity, quality, and find themselves in uncharted territory for which they have little experience. This can be fun, certainly challenging, but also risky.  The wheel does not always need to be reinvented. The judging system is setup to reward performance, quality design, and overall effect.  The sheets do not care whether your show is trying the newest or craziest ideas.  The sheets care about the quality of performance, design, and how those two things combine for a total effect. 

[CorpsLife]

1 hour ago, Guardguy89 said:

Definitely the strangest guard scores this season - Boston and Crown in 7th and 8th is just wrong.  And Phantom should not be beating either of them.  

 

Mike

I posted about this in FB. Only I said "no way!! I call BS!!!"

[mjoakes]

4 minutes ago, CorpsLife said:

I posted about this in FB. Only I said "no way!! I call BS!!!"

The scores do seem unusually low, especially for Crown. From the seats last night - and obviously just my take on it - both BAC and Crown guards had little of the impact of Phantom. I haven't been a big fan of PR's show, either.