garfield Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Stu said: Here are the direct quotes, in order that they appear in the video, in which I based my conclusions, and please read through all of them: “I am in desperate need of your help.” (ok, desperate; so how did that desperation materialize?) “I have had some pretty serious setbacks this year with trying to raise enough funds to make it all work”. (the setbacks were in raising the funds throughout the year, but let's see if the problems were one of an immediate emergency and were the result of immediate exogenous events that all occurred coincidentally ). “”Try to make the goal of $100,000 in the next 24 hours.” (Either a traumatic immediate occurrence has just occurred, or he has known this was coming for quite a while; let's continue) “We have had to endure getting some new trailers and replace appliances on our food truck.” (did this occur as emergency situations out on tour or did they replace these prior to the tour season?; let's continue). “My car is no longer on the road while I try and make a repair happen.” (ok, now this event may be an unexpected event, but we need more info). “And over the course of the season we have been starting behind the eight ball to make it all work for the high level of growth.” (oops, first actual indication that they were trying to maintain the growth, and this has been brewing well beforehand, and not an immediate emergency) “Maybe you can contribute to the campaigns that have been live the past month.” (oops again, an admission that this has been going on since before the start of the tour) “The alternative is to stop it all, which I know is not an option.” (big oops, he knew they were in dire straits over a month ago; and stopping or delaying tour by him because they were in the red was not an option!) “I have I believe heavily in what this activity does for the youth.” along with a number of emotional appeals that it is all based on the phrase, 'the experience for the kids' (yet another very nice guy making the claim for why he allowed this to happen: that it was for the kids; which is the same phrase used by all corps directors in the past who had placed their corps into the same financial trouble) “I don’t let people know how bad it really is.” (Oh My!!! This is one of the best kicker statements that lead me to my conclusion) “So thank you for taking the time to listen to my emotions.” (I get the emotions, I am human and I have them also, but a business is not ran on emotions; and this situation is an example as to why) “So a heartfelt message through this cash flow crisis.” (Ding, Ding, Ding, the crisis is not an immediate emergency trailer, appliance breakdown issue; it is an Ongoing Cash Flow issue; that according to his previous statements has been an ongoing problem before they even hit the road at the start of the season!!!!). Thus the reasons I came to my conclusions. Wow. You take some UGE! leaps of explanation there. A new fridge (or whatever) is not a "cash flow" item? (Hint: um, yes it is.) He speaks in present tense ("...how bad it IS..." emphasis mine) and you want to conflate it to the past. The DCI and corps fundraising challenges have been going on for a month...and? You conflate that to mean this acute problem is systemic - but you can't. “And over the course of the season we have been starting behind the eight ball..." Do you think this is an unusual statement among 40 or so corps each season? Does it indicate anything other than an asset-vacuum? You're reaching, at best, Stu and you're formulating conclusions that are justified only with more speculation. That's not my opinion. That's fact based on your own quotes above. (How did "...cash flow crisis..." in his words become "...ongoing cash flow crisis..." in your words? Speculation and presumption, that's how. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregory11 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 The Spartans were thinking about moving up to WC years ago but ran into some financial difficulties, took a years off and came back sound. Still with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyBiff Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 From their fundraising site: 35K to replace our equipment trailers, as our old trailer was no longer safe to travel 12K to replace our appliances on our food trailer and additional adjustments 8K in additional rental vehicle expense and repairs for support vehicle breakdown early tour 15K in addiitonal expenses for corps housing needs that has risen through the season 30K in equipment replacements and additions for our growing corps, and additional general operating expectations 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 17 minutes ago, Marc66 said: OK - I truly think that it's important to separate the two issues - that way both the current financial urgency can be addressed, and the long-term solvency of the corps as a whole can be dealt with afterwards. First - I have known Ibe for about 10 years and I have never questioned his dedication to the kids, or the organization. While there have been previous organizations who have made a similar plea (only to have it turn out to be b.s.), Ibe is not the sort of person who would put out a distress call unless it was truly an emergency. Also, the paramount issue at hand is making sure those kids are taken care of...and, right now, letting them complete their season is at the top of the list. Why? Because they have put everything they've got into the corps...and to have it cut short with nowhere to go at this late juncture just isn't fair to them. As for the other issue - this can, and should be, addressed after the season. The organization will need to review what happened, determine how or if it could have been prevented, and determine whether they can recover...or cease operations. That's my $.02 I like what you said and buy most of it. But let me play devil's advocate. I am glad to hear that their Executive Director is a great and trustworthy guy. Good to know. If he wants $100K I think he needs to open up to the details of what exactly happened. Eventually, of course, he will. As for paragraph 3, I realize the kids have worked hard and put everything into it, but that doesn't pay for tour. Life isn't always fair. The following is more hypothetical and not aimed at Legends. Is it fair when some kids pay the full amount, others do not, and then the corps runs out of money and has to beg fans to help so the kids can stay on the road and compete? Is it fair to the long-term health of a corps if kids are not charged enough for tour costs and ultimately the corps suffers? Is it fair when some staff or designers are paid salaries above the corps' means (out of greedy competitiveness) and the corps suffers? There are a host of things that are not fair about keeping a non-profit afloat. The competitive nature of drum corps has often made lousy financial managers out of people who otherwise would make sound decisions. The desire to win can never be greater than the desire to build a solid financial operation. I hope the emergency funding works, and for the marching members I hope they can keep touring. Legends are REALLY good! I have seen them many times and love them. But I mostly hope they use the emergency funds to pay down any expenses that have caused this, and others that might cause future problems. After that they should determined whether to stay on the road or not. I really do hope this was some one-time tragedy that could not have been prevented. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, WaxDCIFan said: I'm sure you aren't being dense, I'm just not communicating well. I can tell you, from watching it play out with Genesis, that the process of moving from OC to WC puts these organizations under a lot of financial pressure that many don't appreciate. On the historical point, all I was trying to suggest is that not that long ago Legends would already be a WC corps by virtue of their competitive success. The current vetting process (even with its useful financial scrutiny) was created by the existing WC corps mostly to create a barrier to entry and minimize competition for gate $$. A corps like Legends might have benefited from the old system, IMHO. Whaaaaa? What evidence do you have to confirm this presumption of yours? Them's is some pretty big contentions, IMO, and nothing at all like what is described during the process. Without substantiating proof of your explanation, isn't it also plausible that the current vetting system was established by the DCI BoD in order to assure the safety of the kids in specifically these circumstances? Is it so hard to believe - have the corps done something to demonstrate otherwise - that they are actually looking out for the best interest of the kids they allow to participate? I just can't get my head around the supposed benefit that BD or Crown or PR would attain by eliminating competition in their circuit. Taken to its extreme (and as discussed in many discussions here prior) a WC circuit of only 7 or 8 becomes a slow BLAST! death of the activity. IMO, the "top" corps absolutely know it's in their corps' best interest to generate as much competitive buzz as they can in every stadium. If that means 'Coats beating BD or Academy reaching finals or Genesis making to the big dance or a new Soundsport team with aspirations of attaining OC, the top of the activity is keenly aware of the "gate" that is drawn by having others nipping at their heels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, garfield said: Wow. You take some UGE! leaps of explanation there. A new fridge (or whatever) is not a "cash flow" item? (Hint: um, yes it is.) He speaks in present tense ("...how bad it IS..." emphasis mine) and you want to conflate it to the past. The DCI and corps fundraising challenges have been going on for a month...and? You conflate that to mean this acute problem is systemic - but you can't. “And over the course of the season we have been starting behind the eight ball..." Do you think this is an unusual statement among 40 or so corps each season? Does it indicate anything other than an asset-vacuum? You're reaching, at best, Stu and you're formulating conclusions that are justified only with more speculation. That's not my opinion. That's fact based on your own quotes above. (How did "...cash flow crisis..." in his words become "...ongoing cash flow crisis..." in your words? Speculation and presumption, that's how. The truth will likely come out. But I bet my favorite dog, and that is serious, that the trailers and food truck equipment were pre-tour decisions, and that they placed themselves in great debt at that time; and therefore I believe this was not emergency breakdowns of immediacy while out on tour. And procuring trailers, and other large equipment, on the hope of future cash flow will solve the issue is not a smart move at all; nor is that a disaster caused by immediate emergency. Also, by connecting the dots and putting together the sum of all statements; this has been a cash flow problem to pay debt in arrears for at least the past month. My biggest point is that unless they got $100,000 in the hole via immediate catastrophic circumstances (which is highly unlikely) they should never have gone out on the road in the first place in hopes of collecting future revenue order to sustain them out on the road. Edited July 21, 2017 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, SkippyBiff said: From their fundraising site: 35K to replace our equipment trailers, as our old trailer was no longer safe to travel 12K to replace our appliances on our food trailer and additional adjustments 8K in additional rental vehicle expense and repairs for support vehicle breakdown early tour 15K in addiitonal expenses for corps housing needs that has risen through the season 30K in equipment replacements and additions for our growing corps, and additional general operating expectations With the exception of the car breakdown, all of this expense which placed them in debt was likely known well before going out on tour (including planning for various housing contingencies) and cash should have been secured for before going out on tour. (it appears they were attempting to facilitate massive growth and do a tour without having a secured cash flow of support) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Cainan said: ###### if you do and ###### if you don't... Put that message out in February and nobody turns up for auditions because they think your corps isn't secure. But which is worse? Being honest up front and slimming down expectations of youth numbers and tour schedule, or placing the youth's welfare in possible danger if you end up like Teal out on the road, no buses, no food, and no money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Cainan said: . I appreciate that all the corps are individually run, and that DCI is a facilitating body for marketing and contests, but DCI SHOULD and DOES have say over who attends their shows. DCI SHOULD be looking at corps finances BEFORE they finalise the schedules. DCI, as in the voting member corps, have recently been attempting to keep this type of thing from happening via better oversight. But how far can, or should, a governing body go into snooping into the books and inner workings of an individual corps? That is the sticky question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cainan Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Stu said: But which is worse? Being honest up front and slimming down expectations of youth numbers and tour schedule, or placing the youth's welfare in possible danger if you end up like Teal out on the road, no buses, no food, and no money? Stu... you were involved with the Freelancers a number of years ago no? Well... that corps was pretty much flat broke from 87 on through to 95 when they eventually folded. Had the management said from the get go how bad off they were financially... NOBODY would have pitched up and we would not have gotten 8 more seasons out of that corps. Granted, a different set of circumstances but the bottom line was they had hardly any money, but the admin there worked the corps finances on a month by month basis (sometimes week by week or even day by DAY basis) to keep the corps around. Now eventually, California gaming laws and Cache Creek casino did them in for good. None of us know the day to day finances of the corps. By all accounts the management has been pretty sound up until now. To be fair, they DID in fact pretty much double in size from just 3 years ago. The drum corps competitive product is MUCH different from back in our day. If you want to be successful, you DO have to emulate success. Keeping up with the Joneses is not a luxury, it's a requirement. If you don't have a product the performers want, those performers WILL go somewhere else... so yeah.. ###### if you do and ###### if you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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