Inconsistent guard judging

[Lance]

5 hours ago, Ediker said:

While I can enjoy a given show in spite of the score it gets, it is because of scoring that this activity is way more interesting than a bunch of groups performing shows. Scoring pushes everyone involved to higher levels. 

it depends on what a person finds interesting, i guess

[Fran Haring]

2 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

I don't think there's a way around subjective bias regardless of the judging system used.  So I don't know if the build up system is better than the tic system. That doesn't mean I advocate for returning to the tic system. 

Good point... thus, my "many cases."

The human factor will always be there. Unless robots start judging. LOL

[Vdad76]

Being a former band director who also had a winter guard, we sometimes needed to have practices where I was the only staff person there.  I can tell when flags or rifles are together in their spins or work or if they are together in sections of music In their movement, being a drill writer helps with that.  What I have and always will have is the interpretation of what the movement or equipment work has in relation to the music or the visuals being put forth on the field.  I feel much more comfortable judging visuals, GE or music because they are the things I worked on every day and was prepared for in my daily routines.  I would not want to adjudicate guard or for that matter percussion.  Both have things I am not comfortable with.  I can teach and understand Concert percussion, but in a marching group, their are things on the field my ears do not pick up that percussionists do, just as there are things that color guard judges pick up and see right away that would take me too long to realize and understand.  Not being qualified in those areas, I would not want to judge them and I would hope that most judges, well, no - ALL judges should feel that way.  It's not fair to the staffs that plan, write and teach those things, but especially really unfair to the kids performing them.

[jsd]

In regard to the OP, I simply think guard has become a hard caption to judge.

"Back in the day" (holy cow, I am feeling old...), you had distinctions between guards based on location. The East coast could spin like mofos, the West coast could dance their a**es off. A girl I was engaged to many moons ago auditioned for the San Jose Raiders world guard after a high school career in Florida, and she had everyone sweating in their boots when they were in equipment block, but had to learn how to dance to make it on the West coast (which she did, and ended up being the color guard captain for BD).

Point being, it is a much more level playing field now, and the "subjective" view of a guard comes into play more frequently now than it used to. Consequently, you see scores change nightly.

Shirlee Whitcomb once told me, "The elements of design are non-negotiable". That still holds true, but when every guard is throwing out the same book from a design standpoint, it has become more about the specific judge and their artistic likes and dislikes. When everyone is tossing sevens or eights on a weapon with body movement underneath, the judge has to decide which iteration of that maneuver appeals to them the most.

Also, we have the "Fantasia" effect (as I choose to call it) that changed the guard game by designing in a way that featured tricks over length of phrase, musicality, et al. One also has to consider BD in 1994 when Jay Murphy chose to move the guard from the back sideline to the front of the field and make them an important part of the visual design instead of an afterthought. 

It is a harder call today, and that is just the reality of what is occurring in the judging  patterns.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by jsd

[Jeff Ream]

5 hours ago, HockeyDad said:

Are things judged more objectively under today's system?  

yes. the criteria is on the sheets, and it's the same sheet everywhere. the training DCI judges go through is pretty hefty after talking to a newer judge. You don't get in just because you have a name, and just being in isnt enough to stay in

[DCI-86]

4 hours ago, jsd said:

In regard to the OP, I simply think guard has become a hard caption to judge.

"Back in the day" (holy cow, I am feeling old...), you had distinctions between guards based on location. The East coast could spin like mofos, the West coast could dance their a**es off. A girl I was engaged to many moons ago auditioned for the San Jose Raiders world guard after a high school career in Florida, and she had everyone sweating in their boots when they were in equipment block, but had to learn how to dance to make it on the West coast (which she did, and ended up being the color guard captain for BD).

Point being, it is a much more level playing field now, and the "subjective" view of a guard comes into play more frequently now than it used to. Consequently, you see scores change nightly.

Shirlee Whitcomb once told me, "The elements of design are non-negotiable". That still holds true, but when every guard is throwing out the same book from a design standpoint, it has become more about the specific judge and their artistic likes and dislikes. When everyone is tossing sevens or eights on a weapon with body movement underneath, the judge has to decide which iteration of that maneuver appeals to them the most.

Also, we have the "Fantasia" effect (as I choose to call it) that changed the guard game by designing in a way that featured tricks over length of phrase, musicality, et al. One also has to consider BD in 1994 when Jay Murphy chose to move the guard from the back sideline to the front of the field and make them an inmportant part of the visual design instead of an afterthought. 

It is a harder call today, and that is just the reality of what is occurring in the judging  patterns.

 

 

 

Thank you for bringing the topic back to why I started the thread!!  I don't often start topics - it's amazing how quickly they get derailed!

[Vdad76]

On 7/28/2017 at 0:13 AM, jsd said:

In regard to the OP, I simply think guard has become a hard caption to judge.

"Back in the day" (holy cow, I am feeling old...), you had distinctions between guards based on location. The East coast could spin like mofos, the West coast could dance their a**es off. A girl I was engaged to many moons ago auditioned for the San Jose Raiders world guard after a high school career in Florida, and she had everyone sweating in their boots when they were in equipment block, but had to learn how to dance to make it on the West coast (which she did, and ended up being the color guard captain for BD).

Point being, it is a much more level playing field now, and the "subjective" view of a guard comes into play more frequently now than it used to. Consequently, you see scores change nightly.

Shirlee Whitcomb once told me, "The elements of design are non-negotiable". That still holds true, but when every guard is throwing out the same book from a design standpoint, it has become more about the specific judge and their artistic likes and dislikes. When everyone is tossing sevens or eights on a weapon with body movement underneath, the judge has to decide which iteration of that maneuver appeals to them the most.

Also, we have the "Fantasia" effect (as I choose to call it) that changed the guard game by designing in a way that featured tricks over length of phrase, musicality, et al. One also has to consider BD in 1994 when Jay Murphy chose to move the guard from the back sideline to the front of the field and make them an important part of the visual design instead of an afterthought. 

It is a harder call today, and that is just the reality of what is occurring in the judging  patterns.

 

 

 

George Zengali moved the guard up front and making them an integral art of the story with the 27th Lancers, long before 94 and then many others followed in the late 70s/early 80s. He started in Guard, then became the visual designer for 27, then to Cadets, then to Star.  Gail Royer brought the guard into play with integral parts of the show in the 80s with telling the story in musicals - Fiddler, Phantom of the Opera.  Phantom Regiment integrated the guard into classical music stories from Operas and stories such as Spartacus in the 80s. Bobby Hoffman's shows were legendary for use of guard in stories with the Bridgemen and then the Velvet Knights and the wonderfully wacky shows they put on in the 80s.