DCI Scoring methodology

[MikeRapp]

40 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said:

Since you seem to know how " easy" it is to judge, contact dci and apply to go thru the trial process. 

When did I say judging was easy?

I don't get why so many fans are so defensive about discussing judging. It's central to the entire concept of DCI. Questioning things doesn't make you stupid or unfair. I don't know how much judges know about shows before and after events, that's why I am asking questions.

[jwillis35]

7 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

Do all programs actually get slightly more difficult with every performance? I get the achievement score, but I don't get how a program that essentially remains unchanged for the majority of the season can somehow get more difficult, magically leading up to 100 total points, every week...and never actually regresses in difficulty when a corps simplifies their show.

Content does change throughout the season a lot more than people think. Even little minor changes do change content scores. So even if the content is not harder, often it may become more clear with subtle changes. This often gives the judge a better look at what the content is.  I would also say that content does tend to improve as things get cleaner. The cleaner the marching or playing the more the judge can assess the level of content.  Little things like tempo adjustments change content. Performing a certain move to music at 120 BPM is one thing, and that same content at 162 BPM is another. If a horn angle changes, a body move, a more expressive ralentando, a slight change of phrasing, etc. the content is changing -- and with cleanliness that content is becoming more obvious.  

Early in the season when some shows are very sloppy, the content is not as easy to read. Judges will not reward early-season content with big numbers just because it looks hard. Remember content is not just demand, it's construction. It must be logical and effectively conceived. Throwing a whole bunch of crazy whiplash moves on the field that make no sense, and doing so to music the kids can't yet play will not result in a great content score, nor a great achievement score. 

[mountaineers97]

I feel that content scores early in the season should run from 70 to 80 for most corps since that is roughly the amount of content present in the show at that point.  Achievement scores should be 10 to 15 points below this level at the start of the season.  At the opening shows there is no way achievement is within several points of content that early.  During the season as a corps improves the content should increase as new things are added but achievement should increase at a faster rate as the corps clean their show.

[Schnitzel]

This is quite an interesting discussion.  A couple of sub-topics need clarification, IMO:

• Judging DCI, DCA, etc. is not a professional career.  The actual pay is very low (much lower than WGI or BOA, etc.), and the "average" judge does about 4 shows per season.  Most judges actually report a financial loss for their tax exposure from drum corps judging.  If you do it enough, the frequent-flyer miles are pretty good, however.  That's about it.  
• There is some formal communication during the competitive season among adjudicators and administrators, but not much.  Judges are most always professionally engaged in some sort of "day job" outside the marching activity - in fact, most use vacation time to judge shows.  So the idea of this collective roster of full-time judges ready for deployment is not one based in reality.
• No musical scores, drill charts, etc. are ever submitted to adjudicators before, during, or after the season.  It has been discussed over the years, but to this point has not been attempted.  As stated earlier, the charts would change daily, if not hourly.
• I know it probably disappoints some, but the idea that there is any fiduciary link between a judges' scoring patterns and ANY direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community is fallacious and insulting to all involved.  To a person, judges are first-and-foremost advocate/fans of these youth activities whose professional lives are focused elsewhere.  Of all the hired labor in drum corps (administration, design, instruction, consulting, etc.), adjudication is easily the least financially profitable.  In fact, considered from purely an economic standpoint, the pay and non-existent benefits are quite sub-standard in light of the education, training, experience, and diverse skill-set required to perform at such a high level.  These are special people.

[sched88]

1 hour ago, Schnitzel said:

This is quite an interesting discussion.  A couple of sub-topics need clarification, IMO:

• Judging DCI, DCA, etc. is not a professional career.  The actual pay is very low (much lower than WGI or BOA, etc.), and the "average" judge does about 4 shows per season.  Most judges actually report a financial loss for their tax exposure from drum corps judging.  If you do it enough, the frequent-flyer miles are pretty good, however.  That's about it.  
• There is some formal communication during the competitive season among adjudicators and administrators, but not much.  Judges are most always professionally engaged in some sort of "day job" outside the marching activity - in fact, most use vacation time to judge shows.  So the idea of this collective roster of full-time judges ready for deployment is not one based in reality.
• No musical scores, drill charts, etc. are ever submitted to adjudicators before, during, or after the season.  It has been discussed over the years, but to this point has not been attempted.  As stated earlier, the charts would change daily, if not hourly.
• I know it probably disappoints some, but the idea that there is any fiduciary link between a judges' scoring patterns and ANY direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community is fallacious and insulting to all involved.  To a person, judges are first-and-foremost advocate/fans of these youth activities whose professional lives are focused elsewhere.  Of all the hired labor in drum corps (administration, design, instruction, consulting, etc.), adjudication is easily the least financially profitable.  In fact, considered from purely an economic standpoint, the pay and non-existent benefits are quite sub-standard in light of the education, training, experience, and diverse skill-set required to perform at such a high level.  These are special people.

So I think what you're saying is that the judges do it because they love the activity.

[MikeRapp]

1 hour ago, Schnitzel said:

This is quite an interesting discussion.  A couple of sub-topics need clarification, IMO:

• Judging DCI, DCA, etc. is not a professional career.  The actual pay is very low (much lower than WGI or BOA, etc.), and the "average" judge does about 4 shows per season.  Most judges actually report a financial loss for their tax exposure from drum corps judging.  If you do it enough, the frequent-flyer miles are pretty good, however.  That's about it.  
• There is some formal communication during the competitive season among adjudicators and administrators, but not much.  Judges are most always professionally engaged in some sort of "day job" outside the marching activity - in fact, most use vacation time to judge shows.  So the idea of this collective roster of full-time judges ready for deployment is not one based in reality.
• No musical scores, drill charts, etc. are ever submitted to adjudicators before, during, or after the season.  It has been discussed over the years, but to this point has not been attempted.  As stated earlier, the charts would change daily, if not hourly.
• I know it probably disappoints some, but the idea that there is any fiduciary link between a judges' scoring patterns and ANY direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community is fallacious and insulting to all involved.  To a person, judges are first-and-foremost advocate/fans of these youth activities whose professional lives are focused elsewhere.  Of all the hired labor in drum corps (administration, design, instruction, consulting, etc.), adjudication is easily the least financially profitable.  In fact, considered from purely an economic standpoint, the pay and non-existent benefits are quite sub-standard in light of the education, training, experience, and diverse skill-set required to perform at such a high level.  These are special people.

Thank you for your insight and information.

[Vdad76]

15 hours ago, Schnitzel said:

This is quite an interesting discussion.  A couple of sub-topics need clarification, IMO:

• Judging DCI, DCA, etc. is not a professional career.  The actual pay is very low (much lower than WGI or BOA, etc.), and the "average" judge does about 4 shows per season.  Most judges actually report a financial loss for their tax exposure from drum corps judging.  If you do it enough, the frequent-flyer miles are pretty good, however.  That's about it.  
• There is some formal communication during the competitive season among adjudicators and administrators, but not much.  Judges are most always professionally engaged in some sort of "day job" outside the marching activity - in fact, most use vacation time to judge shows.  So the idea of this collective roster of full-time judges ready for deployment is not one based in reality.
• No musical scores, drill charts, etc. are ever submitted to adjudicators before, during, or after the season.  It has been discussed over the years, but to this point has not been attempted.  As stated earlier, the charts would change daily, if not hourly.
• I know it probably disappoints some, but the idea that there is any fiduciary link between a judges' scoring patterns and ANY direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community is fallacious and insulting to all involved.  To a person, judges are first-and-foremost advocate/fans of these youth activities whose professional lives are focused elsewhere.  Of all the hired labor in drum corps (administration, design, instruction, consulting, etc.), adjudication is easily the least financially profitable.  In fact, considered from purely an economic standpoint, the pay and non-existent benefits are quite sub-standard in light of the education, training, experience, and diverse skill-set required to perform at such a high level.  These are special people.

Great job of disseminating information that is essential to understanding adjudication.  You would be crazy to try and be a professional judge, it just doesn't work out as a workable full time job.  I've never seen charts given to anyone, whether it's music or visuals, in marching band or Drum Corps or Winter Guard.  It would be impossible to do because the shows change so rapidly.  I had a close friend who was involved with the Sacramento Freelancers in the 90s who worked with the Visual team.  I got to visit him as they were practicing for Quarterfinals and he relayed to me that they had gone through over 400 charts of visual changes during the season, besides the over 200 they started with.  That's a lot of changing for any group and I'm sure there were groups that were far past that amount of changes, besides the small changes made during rehearsals, made on the fly.  I know that in drill writing now, we chart for some marching bands, over 100 charts to begin with and then make another 50-100 charts worth of changes during the year.  Getting that kind of information to judges would be impossible, let alone having them understand it.  Music would be even more difficult and with royalty charges along with paying arrangers and then making cuts, simplifying certain parts or transferring parts to another voicing, it becomes an even larger mess and again would make it difficult to get to adjudicators.  Other parts of the music education business are very different as far as adjudication goes.  In festivals run at the distric, regional or state levels, adjudicators have scores in front of them, but then there is no variance or changes made to that music and most states do not allow cuts to be made to published music and most do allow for handwritten music, that is not published.  That is a very different setting.  I would venture to say that someone who is adjudicating in any music endeavor at whatever level it is, has a full time job doing whatever it is most people work at in a day to day setting.  Most jobs would be as music teachers.  Some may be as instructors for percussion, color guard.  They are drill writers, music arrangers and composers and even corporate officers in companies, banks and a great variance of jobs everywhere.  They all have one thing in common, they love the activity they are judging and want to see it succeed in whatever purpose it has.

[Jim Schehr]

15 hours ago, Schnitzel said:

This is quite an interesting discussion.  A couple of sub-topics need clarification, IMO:

• I know it probably disappoints some, but the idea that there is any fiduciary link between a judges' scoring patterns and ANY direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community is fallacious and insulting to all involved.  To a person, judges are first-and-foremost advocate/fans of these youth activities whose professional lives are focused elsewhere.  Of all the hired labor in drum corps (administration, design, instruction, consulting, etc.), adjudication is easily the least financially profitable.  In fact, considered from purely an economic standpoint, the pay and non-existent benefits are quite sub-standard in light of the education, training, experience, and diverse skill-set required to perform at such a high level.  These are special people.

No doubt they're special people. I have a few questions related to direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community?

Do any DCI judges receive compensation directly from any DCI corps organization through (consulting fees, direct hire, marching band circuits/band, or WGI participant) affiliated with that organization? These things are not always easily discerned. Do judges supplement there income in any manner besides being a DCI judge from any DCI organization they're judging? Are there any processes currently in place to monitor improprieties?

 

[mjyaub]

It's all subjective, personal favorites, and political. Based on no real "science" at all.

[Schnitzel]

5 hours ago, Jim Schehr said:

No doubt they're special people. I have a few questions related to direct or indirect relationships in the pageantry community?

Do any DCI judges receive compensation directly from any DCI corps organization through (consulting fees, direct hire, marching band circuits/band, or WGI participant) affiliated with that organization? These things are not always easily discerned. Do judges supplement there income in any manner besides being a DCI judge from any DCI organization they're judging? Are there any processes currently in place to monitor improprieties?

 

To be blunt: no.  Judges must report any and all affiliations (primary and secondary) in all the major organizations (DCI, DCA, BOA, USBands, WGI, etc.).  In the small world of marching arts, competitors are very aware of potential conflicts of interest, and it would be difficult to circumvent private and public scrutiny.