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A Reprieve on A&E (Maybe?)


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Regardless of what one thinks about the relative balance of educational value and hyped visual aspects in the commercial world vis-a-vis DCI, I think the implementation of synth brass and poorly amplified electronics cheats the audience (including aspiring young players) out of the aural and visceral experience of learning what great brass and percussion actually sound like, which IMHO, is part and parcel of drum corps history, and an educational experience rarely obtained short of ponying up to hear the Chicago Symphony, et al. 

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6 minutes ago, brichtimp said:

Regardless of what one thinks about the relative balance of educational value and hyped visual aspects in the commercial world vis-a-vis DCI, I think the implementation of synth brass and poorly amplified electronics cheats the audience (including aspiring young players) out of the aural and visceral experience of learning what great brass and percussion actually sound like, which IMHO, is part and parcel of drum corps history, and an educational experience rarely obtained short of ponying up to hear the Chicago Symphony, et al. 

Aside from the poorly amplified electronics I rather disgree with your accusation. BD, SCV, Crown, Cadets all still have incredible brass players and incredible percussionists producing incredible live music. They are augmented by things we are debating, but the audience is not being 'cheated' from the live extraordinary musicianship produced by extraordinary youth. Am I in favor of recorded dubbing enhancement, nope. But neither am I being cheated out if hearing great live music.

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2 minutes ago, Stu said:

Aside from the poorly amplified electronics I rather disgree with your accusation. BD, SCV, Crown, Cadets all still have incredible brass players and incredible percussionists producing incredible live music. They are augmented by things we are debating, but the audience is not being 'cheated' from the live extraordinary musicianship produced by extraordinary youth. Am I in favor of recorded dubbing enhancement, nope. But neither am I being cheated out if hearing great live music.

Sorry that you did not understand me! The fact that the top corps these days have great young brass and percussion masters exacerbates my annoyance with their natural sound being distorted, corrupted or otherwise degraded by amateur-hour electronics and amplification. In my mind, go back and watch Felliniesque...for me, that's a positive example of what I want to hear in terms of sound quality...the micing of the soloists was superb, and the tutti sections featured excellent sound quality from my seat at least.

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9 minutes ago, brichtimp said:

Sorry that you did not understand me! The fact that the top corps these days have great young brass and percussion masters exacerbates my annoyance with their natural sound being distorted, corrupted or otherwise degraded by amateur-hour electronics and amplification. In my mind, go back and watch Felliniesque...for me, that's a positive example of what I want to hear in terms of sound quality...the micing of the soloists was superb, and the tutti sections featured excellent sound quality from my seat at least.

Ok, then it is just in the poor implementation of the technology, not the technology itself, in which you have an issue. That I agree with 100%. Every great commercial horn section I have ever heard has had at one time or another been amplified; from Tower of Power to Here Come the Mummies to even Boston and Chicago Symphony Brass. And they all sounded superb!!!

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I guess I have decided to look the other way on electronics - until this season.. With the proliferation of its use this season, I can't help but feel that some of the luster of sound has been taken away from us.  From SCV's use of amping a 12 member horn section for an entire show, to BD's thunderous gooey bass even when they use only 12 tubas to many other corps' 16.    I guess the difference is the corps have finally come to realize the error of their ways. As Hopkins points out, it may take a couple more seasons before this issue really is taken control of.   Here's hoping they figure it out.  It's not a cute pitch bend anymore.  

Edited by drumcorpsfever
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1 hour ago, drumcorpsfever said:

I guess I have decided to look the other way on electronics - until this season.. With the proliferation of its use this season, I can't help but feel that some of the luster of sound has been taken away from us.  From SCV's use of amping a 12 member horn section for an entire show, to BD's thunderous gooey bass even when they use only 12 tubas to many other corps' 16.    I guess the difference is the corps have finally come to realize the error of their ways. As Hopkins points out, it may take a couple more seasons before this issue really is taken control of.   Here's hoping they figure it out.  It's not a cute pitch bend anymore.  

Here is a question for you: If GH had the Downy/Glyde/Johnson team and designs, or the Shaw/Rennick team and designs, and the Cadets were on the verge of winning another title, do you really think GH would be making these same public outcry calls for deminishing these progressive designs? I await your response.

Edited by Stu
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And if Phantom finishes 10th it will be their lowest placement since 1974--first year they made finals.

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2 hours ago, Stu said:

Here is a question for you: If GH had the Downy/Glyde/Johnson team and designs, or the Shaw/Rennick team and designs, and the Cadets were on the verge of winning another title, do you really think GH would be making these same public outcry calls for deminishing these progressive designs? I await your response.

Whatever George Hopkins' motivations for the comments that he's made, they're relevant to what's happening now. If you consider the message, not the source, I think you would probably agree that he's made some good points. Among them include:

1) Electrronics have gone in a direction that may not have been anticipated or intended;

2) Use of electronics, though legal and creative, may lead the activity to a place they may not want to go;

3) Creating artificial sounds for voices already in the mix (doubling-tripeling up brass for example) warrants further discussion;

4) Suggests that, perhaps, electroncis may be better suited for creating voices outside of the field instrumentation - such as woodwinds, etc.;

5) Concern for the spectators who have to sit near speakers;

6) Raises issues of stadium walls/environmental aspects having impact on electronic equipment, reverb, projection, sound quality;

7) The rapid proliferation of electronics over a very short period of time - good time to assess the current state of affairs;

8) Impact of sound equipment, the use of sound engineers versus apprentices;

9) Props, props, props - impact of logistics, those tasked with prop responsibilities and impact on the student experience;

10) The implication that the horse is already out of the barn. It's too late to reign it back in anytime soon.   However, even with the topic raised at the Januals, it probably won't be until 2019 before any real change can be made.  

 

So, again, regardless of how one may feel about the messenger, his motivation, etc., these are all good points raised in a very short interview. One other issue Hopkins raised, albeit indirectly, is the economic cost that the electronics, props, and toys have had on drum corps.  It's become an arms race.  It's one that affects the competitive well-being of the DCI membership.  

There's much that was said, even more to be done.

 

Edited by drumcorpsfever
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On 8/6/2017 at 0:08 PM, HockeyDad said:

In polite company...GH should not be posting corps related streams of consciousness on Facebook or any other social media. He is a bull in a china shop. He apparently thinks he's hip, cool, and self-aware. His social media portfolio tells me he most definitely is not. 

But...but...HockeyDad...look at his hair in the video...it is magnificent! No one channels Sir Richard Branson cool as he does, nor can anyone top his "Lobo the Intergalactic Bounty Hunter from Justice League: Unlimited" attitude with that designer beard. Give him some credit-- duuude! 

 

You know I'm pulling your leg; I agree with your post! 

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1 hour ago, drumcorpsfever said:

Whatever GH's motivations for the comments that he's made, they're relevant to what's happening now. If you consider the message, not the source, I think you would probably agree that he's made some good points. Among them include:

1) Electrronics have gone in a direction that may not have been anticipated or intended;

2) Use of electronics, though legal and creative, may lead the activity to a place they may not want to go;

3) Creating artificial sounds for voices already in the mix (doubling-tripeling up brass for example) warrants further discussion;

4) Suggests that, perhaps, electroncis may be better suited for creating voices outside of the field instrumentation - such as woodwinds, etc.;

5) Concern for the spectators who have to sit near speakers;

6) Raises issues of stadium walls/environmental aspects having impact on electronic equipment, reverb, projection, sound quality;

7) The rapid proliferation of electronics over a very short period of time - good time to assess the current state of affairs;

8) Impact of sound equipment, the use of sound engineers versus apprentices;

9) Props, props, props - impact of logistics, those tasked with prop responsibilities and impact of the student experience;

10) The implication that the horse is already out of the gate.  It's too late to reign it back in anytime soon.   However, even with the topic raised at the Januals, it probably won't be until 2019 before any real change can be made.  

 

So, again, regardless of how one may feel about the messenger, his motivation, etc., these are all good points raised in a very short interview.     One other issue GH didn't raise but has a real impact on the activity, is the economic cost the electronics, props, and toys have had on drum corps.  It's become an arms race.  It's one that affects the competitive well-being of the DCI membership.  

There's much that was said, even more to be done.

 

A winning director GH spoke very highly of progressive designs; but as a seventh or eighth place director he now speaks out against those other corps who are winning with their progressive designs.  Anyway, here are my responses to your 10 comments:

1) Electronics have gone in a direction that may not have been anticipated or intended;

> Maybe; but the way BD and SCV have intended to use them in 2017 is competitively highly successful.

 

2) Use of electronics, though legal and creative, may lead the activity to a place they may not want to go;

> They may lead where Hop does not want to go, but I am pretty sure both Heimbecker and Frost are rather happy at the moment.

 

3) Creating artificial sounds for voices already in the mix (doubling-tripeling up brass for example) warrants further discussion;

> Discussion is always good. But again it is someone who is getting competitively whacked that is speaking out.

 

4) Suggests that, perhaps, electroncis may be better suited for creating voices outside of the field instrumentation - such as woodwinds, etc.;

> Placing limitations on technology already legal will be a hard sell to those winning with it the way it is now without limitations.

 

5) Concern for the spectators who have to sit near speakers;

> Welcome to every dang rock concert ever produced since amps were invented; and by the way nobody forces people to buy tickets near the stacks at any concert.

 

6) Raises issues of stadium walls/environmental aspects having impact on electronic equipment, reverb, projection, sound quality;

> Which can all be addressed in the quality of the mix.

 

7) The rapid proliferation of electronics over a very short period of time - good time to assess the current state of affairs;

> Again, discussion is always a good thing; but remember some corps are very happy with how things are going (the winners)

 

8) Impact of sound equipment, the use of sound engineers versus apprentices;

> Already addressed many times, and whether we like it or not, already shot down for rescinding either aspect.

 

9) Props, props, props - impact of logistics, those tasked with prop responsibilities and impact of the student experience;

> Win with props love the props; lose with props hate the props.

 

10) The implication that the horse is already out of the gate.  It's too late to reign it back in anytime soon.   However, even with the topic raised at the Januals, it probably won't be until 2019 before any real change can be made.

> You can turn a cucumber into a pickle, but try turning a pickle into a cucumber.  Cannot be done.  The only way to rectify it is to throw away the pickle and buy a different cucumber.

 

Edited by Stu
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